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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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 Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: Don't act like a Moslem-- be killed by your family (Germany) |
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,358661,00.html
Why some in the world continue to call this a "religion of peace" is beyond me. Keep in mind, these are normal people, not terrorists (or are they?)...
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The brutal "honor killing" of a 16-year-old Afghan immigrant by her brother has sparked a renewed debate in Germany over whether Islamic families can adapt to the social ways of the Western world.
The girl, Morsal Obeidi, was ambushed in the parking lot of a Hamburg McDonald's restaurant by her 23-year-old brother Ahmad, who stabbed the girl 20 times, Spiegel Online reported. Hamburg is home to more than 20,000 Afghan immigrants, the most of any European city, the Web site reported.
Morsal Obeidi had long struggled with a tug-of-war between her desire to live like her friends in Germany, and her family�s desire to preserve their Afghan lifestyle, the site reported.
Obeidi's arguments with her brother and father, over things like her appearance, smoking and drinking, often turned physical. She reportedly sought the protection of a child and youth welfare agency to escape the violence on more than one occasion.
Ahmed reportedly told police that he killed his sister because she had become too comfortable with Western life with her uncovered hair, makeup and short skirts. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| These people are from Afghanistan, the Appalachia of Asia. That's their problem. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| It's not the religion that's the source of the honor killing mentality; it's the culture from which the people come from. There are Christians in the Middle East and Northern Africa who carry out "honor killings" against family members. |
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Zolt
Joined: 18 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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There was a honor killing story strikingly similar to this one last week, among hindu bum-folk in an indian village. It's more of an ape-man tribal mentality thing.
The civilized thing to do would have been to blame Canada instead. |
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traveler81
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Location: Byeongjeom, Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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The problem is that even if it is a cultural and not a strictly religious attribute Islam is a complete way of life. It is not simply a religion, but a political idealogy, and cultural ideology as well.
Specifically, I'm talking about Wahabiism (sp?), Saudi Arabia's number one export to the rest of the world. This is the the type of Islam that all the terrorists and most of the people who support them ascribe to.
Honor killings are a way of life for these people, not because of they moved from Afghanistan or whereever, but because their whole identity is found in Islam. It's a religion that you can convert to, but you can never convert from without being killed by those who still believe.
When a young woman "dishonors" her family by westernizing--something that all immigrants are expected to do, or at least they were until the multi-culturalists took over. Now the people only have their identity in the view of Islam that they hear from the mullah at the neighborhood mosque--who more than likely came from Saudi Arabia.
Also, how many times do you hear about other religious groups being involved in a honor killing? Definitely not as often as you hear about the honor killings among Muslims, especially if their immigrants to Western nations. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| These people are from Afghanistan, the Appalachia of Asia. That's their problem. |
No. The problem is... what the hell are we doing importing crazy fundamentalist muslims for the appalachia of Asia? What good can possibly come of this? Why must the West, and ONLY the West, import by the hundreds of thousands people from the most backwards parts of the world? |
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traveler81
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Location: Byeongjeom, Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| These people are from Afghanistan, the Appalachia of Asia. That's their problem. |
No. The problem is... what the hell are we doing importing crazy fundamentalist muslims for the appalachia of Asia? What good can possibly come of this? Why must the West, and ONLY the West, import by the hundreds of thousands people from the most backwards parts of the world? |
Because the West--especially Europe and Canada--are in desperate need of labour to prop up their ageing demography. There aren't enough natural-born citizens of these countries to support the vast social welfare programs that these governments have in place.
The West is either just above replacement birth rate (the US is at 2.1-2.4 I believe), but most other countries are well below it (Greece is the lowest at 1.2). The countries are ageing rapidly with no one to work in order to pay for these programs.
That's just one of many reasons. Another being the cultural relativist's view that all cultures are equally valid--even those that practice genital mutilation on pre-pubescent girls. There are several good resources out there including excellent books on the subject of the ageing west v. the virile Islamic world. PM me if interested. |
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flip ant
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Location: He's got high hopes!
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| It's not the religion that's the source of the honor killing mentality; it's the culture from which the people come from. There are Christians in the Middle East and Northern Africa who carry out "honor killings" against family members. |
Link, please. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| traveler81 wrote: |
| There are several good resources out there including excellent books on the subject of the ageing west v. the virile Islamic world. PM me if interested. |
That's a rather loaded way of putting it. I would say it's part of the universally observed phenomenon of poorer people reproducing faster than richer. Korea's a case in point, going from poor with a rapidly growing population to rich with a reproduction rate that's dropped below replacement level. |
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traveler81
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Location: Byeongjeom, Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| traveler81 wrote: |
| There are several good resources out there including excellent books on the subject of the ageing west v. the virile Islamic world. PM me if interested. |
That's a rather loaded way of putting it. I would say it's part of the universally observed phenomenon of poorer people reproducing faster than richer. Korea's a case in point, going from poor with a rapidly growing population to rich with a reproduction rate that's dropped below replacement level. |
It's not so much a poor v. rich contrast as a religious v. secular contrast. Take the US for example. Red States are vastly out-reproducing Blue States. Why? Red State citizens believe in traditional families, are pro-life, and have a desire for large families. Blue State citizens are pro-choice, wait until their 30 and then only have one child, also several of them are in non-reproductive relationships (homosexuals, singles, etc.).
Granted these are gross generalizations but it does show the reality.
As countries become industrialized, they delay the socially acceptable age of marriage from child-bearing years (12-13) to past majority (24-26). How many people do you know have kids before their mid-twenties? Don't take me the wrong way: I'm not advocating child brides or anything of the sort. However, the affluence of a country is just one factor in the grand scheme of things.
Religion plays a huge factor. In the US, Utah has one of the highest birth rates. Why? Because Mormons believe in having large families. Given a long enough time--well within our lifetimes, it's being estimated at mid-century--demographers are forecasting that Western Europe will be largley Islamified by the influx of immigrants and their reproductive rates. Current EU reproduction of non-immigrants is hovering below replacement rates (2.1) whereas the birthrate of immigrants--especially those of Islamic persuasion--is averaging at 4.5. That's quite a difference between the two.
Given the fact that the "richness" of the West is a minimal factor in causing a change in Islamic immigrants view of family and reproduction, it's simplistic to say its simply a rich v poor contrast. I would say that it definitely is a factor, though certainly by no means the predominant one. |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Red State citizens believe in traditional families, are pro-life, and have a desire for large families. |
On the surface but they have a much higher divorce rate.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
The Associated Press computed divorce statistics from data supplied by the U.S. Census Bureau and the National Center for Health.4
The data showed that the highest divorce rates were found in the Bible Belt. "Tennessee, Arkansas, Alabama and Oklahoma round out the Top Five in frequency of divorce...the divorce rates in these conservative states are roughly 50 percent above the national average" of 4.2/1000 people.
11 southern states (AL, AR, AZ, FL, GA, MS, NC, NM, OK, SC and TX averaged 5.1/1000 people. (LA data is not available; TX data is for 1997).
Nine states in the Northeast (CT, MA, ME, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VT) averaged only 3.5/1000 people.
Some of the factors that contribute to a high divorce rate in the Bible Belt, relative to Northeastern states are:
More couples enter their first marriage at a younger age. Average household incomes are lower (OK and AR rate 46th and 47th in the U.S.)
They have a lower percentage of Roman Catholics, a denomination that does not recognize divorce. Anthony Jordan, executive director of the Southern Baptist Convention in Oklahoma commented: "I applaud the Catholics," says Jordan. "I don't think we as Protestant evangelists have done nearly as well preparing people for marriage. And in the name of being loving and accepting, we have not placed the stigma on divorce that we should have."
Some factor in conservative Protestantism -- which is prevalent in the Bible Belt -- may causes a higher level of divorce. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: |
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I think that Afghanistan is going to have to modernize itself. You cannot be surprised that some from that country will act that way when they were ruled by the Taliban and Afghanistan is far less modern when compared to Iraq even. Iraq is far more advanced than that country.
In Jordan, they recently sentenced a man to several years of prison for an honor killing which is unusual for Jordan, and they need to do more of that to stamp out honor killing in Jordan. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The problem is... what the hell are we doing importing crazy fundamentalist muslims for the appalachia of Asia? |
I wonder what is the per capita data for honour killings to Muslim emmigrants? Data anyone? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| These people are from Afghanistan, the Appalachia of Asia. That's their problem. |
No. The problem is... what the hell are we doing importing crazy fundamentalist muslims for the appalachia of Asia? What good can possibly come of this? Why must the West, and ONLY the West, import by the hundreds of thousands people from the most backwards parts of the world? |
I agree with this. We should import the sensible, worldly, intelligent, accomplished Muslims. Not the people who are so ignorant that they could interpret Don Quixote as an advocation to charge windmills. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| flip ant wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| It's not the religion that's the source of the honor killing mentality; it's the culture from which the people come from. There are Christians in the Middle East and Northern Africa who carry out "honor killings" against family members. |
Link, please. |
Here you go. Don't just tell yourself, "Oh, that's Wiki" and leave it at that. Check the links at the end. |
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