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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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 Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: standardizing the E curriculum in Korea |
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does anyone know if this has ever been attempted? or if plans are in the works now for it?
I'm speaking of starting at the elementary school level (if that's not obvious)
standardization of basic communication skills, what should be taught in the way of grammar, vocabulary, etc.
what's going on now is such a hodge-podge of learning, no wonder kids hit middle school and high school and know some of this and none of that.
and for those of you who've taught ESL in other countries - are there standards of E anywhere else?
it seems to me if Korea set more stringent guidelines, goals, etc. and tried to follow those it would go a lot further than all this nonsense regarding teachers and what kinds of skills they have (or don't have).
*btw, I'm not talking about that nonsense SMOE has for a textbook; I mean an actual (and realistic) standardized curriculum. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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I think there are a lot of things the government and all levels of the educational hierarchy can do better. (communication, training, technology, access, promotion)
Standardizing isn't one of them! Actually you have a VERY standardized system in place and I reject any kind of essentializing of language.
The curriculum is the English language. The place to start is to better train teachers (foreign and Korean) and equip them with the tools and env. to succeed. Standardizing in any way is a cop out.
Again, I'll repeat this for people who don't get it -- The English Language Is the Curriculum.....not a textbook or handouts or games -- courses or content. This is just an afterthought and justification of a "role".
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com
Ps. Moosehead - which "English curriculum do you speak?", if I may ask. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Ps. Moosehead - which "English curriculum do you speak?", if I may ask. |
I don't follow you on this question - if you can clarify I'll try and answer it.
I'm puzzled why you or anyone would be against a standardization of English being taught - basic vocabulary, grammar, etc.
saying the "English Language" is the standard - that's nonsense - one has to start somewhere and work one's way through.
and what standards are you claiming exist? there are none, none at all. that's ridiculous. virtually everyone teaches to tests, the TOEIC and TOEFL and others.
virtually anyone that's been here a couple of years and has experienced hakwon and ps can testify to how disoriented, disjointed, and haphazard the teaching is.
you mention training teachers - but how can you propose to better train educators if you don't have a standard in place for them to teach?
that's my point - it seems to be putting the cart before the horse.
it would also facilitate what the K E teachers could be doing - if they were teaching in a more organized fashion than how they are now. |
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xtchr
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: |
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[quote="ddeubel"]Again, I'll repeat this for people who don't get it -- The English Language Is the Curriculum.....
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com
quote]
I don't agree. That's like saying 'Numbers are the Maths curriculum'
You don't teach quantum physics to a 6 year old, and neither do you teach the two times table to a University student. These things are set out with standards and objectives, i.e in grade six John will be able to multiply sets of numbers, and show the answer using a decimal point.
Something is needed in English, along the lines of 'in grade 5, John will be able to use 20 of the following high frequency words in spoken form, in response to a question' so teachers can gauge what students know/don't know. |
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T-dot
Joined: 16 May 2004
Location: bundang
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: |
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all the curriculum in the world won't help if the teachers dont know how to use them.
train the teachers and this "standardized curriculum " should follow. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| T-dot wrote: |
all the curriculum in the world won't help if the teachers dont know how to use them.
train the teachers and this "standardized curriculum " should follow. |
again - you are putting the cart before the horse -
how can you train teachers ??? train them in what?
you have to have a standard in place first, then train them to follow that.
yes, logical, I know, that's contrary to K's thinking, but I think it's time someone pointed this out and a dialogue was held. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="xtchr"]
| ddeubel wrote: |
Again, I'll repeat this for people who don't get it -- The English Language Is the Curriculum.....
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com
quote]
I don't agree. That's like saying 'Numbers are the Maths curriculum'
You don't teach quantum physics to a 6 year old, and neither do you teach the two times table to a University student. These things are set out with standards and objectives, i.e in grade six John will be able to multiply sets of numbers, and show the answer using a decimal point.
Something is needed in English, along the lines of 'in grade 5, John will be able to use 20 of the following high frequency words in spoken form, in response to a question' so teachers can gauge what students know/don't know. |
this is exactly what I'm talking about.
as it exists now, SMOE (for just one example) starts 3rd graders off with a textbook that goes directly into conversation. No intro for the alphabet and if students haven't had that, well, too bad.
furthermore, I was told (in 2006) 3rd and 4th graders were NOT to do any writing at all!! not until 5th grade were they supposed to even start writing! of course I insisted they start and gave them easy words to practice. that was when I discovered how many did not know the alphabet.
E is taught in a structured format to children who speak it as their first language, it only makes sense it would be just as structured, if not more so, to those who are learning it as a foreign or second language. |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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All I want is a co-teacher that can speak English.
Edit: I take that back... I don't want to know what's going on. 
Last edited by cruisemonkey on Fri May 16, 2008 5:50 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| cruisemonkey wrote: |
| All I want is a co-teacher that can speak English. |
having standards in place would help facilitate this as any K teacher who did not meet the standards would have to take remedial education until he or she was proven to meet or exceed them. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Focusing on 'core' vocabularly would be a start. Students waste so much time memorising difficult vocabularly they don't know how to use. Teaching them how to use the most common words and expressions would be a lot more useful. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I don't follow you on this question - if you can clarify I'll try and answer it.
I'm puzzled why you or anyone would be against a standardization of English being taught - basic vocabulary, grammar, etc.
saying the "English Language" is the standard - that's nonsense - one has to start somewhere and work one's way through.
and what standards are you claiming exist? there are none, none at all. that's ridiculous. virtually everyone teaches to tests, the TOEIC and TOEFL and others.
virtually anyone that's been here a couple of years and has experienced hakwon and ps can testify to how disoriented, disjointed, and haphazard the teaching is.
you mention training teachers - but how can you propose to better train educators if you don't have a standard in place for them to teach?
that's my point - it seems to be putting the cart before the horse.
it would also facilitate what the K E teachers could be doing - if they were teaching in a more organized fashion than how they are now. |
Moosehead,
The "disorientation" you allude too won't be cleaned up by "standards". Only better teaching.
There shouldn't be standards imo because
A) English as a foreign language is a very different subject than most of the "standard" subjects (history, science, math). It is NOT content based but primarily process based.
B) Teachers need independence and this should be the foundation upon which all teaching rests. Every teacher is different. Some will like a textbook, some won't -- no matter what the textbook. Some will like a method or curriculum objective, others won't. You can't fit square pegs into round holes and the road you are envisioning is just that --
C) Whose standards? YBS envisions "core" vocabulary -- well that won't be any good if it isn't a vocabulary focused on VERBS but I can envision a whole pile of teachers running around teaching words by rote, words which won't stick more than a day or two.... (you need USE and also Verbs - the flypaper for all vocabulary). Words must also be learned in a context, one no standard curriculum can deal with -- only a trained teacher.
D) A very formal curriculum across the board also leads to strict testing. And we all know about what that leads to.....a great test score but very limited fluency. English is dynamic and can't be confined/lassooed (sp.?)/corraled.
Thus, my quip about "what curriculum do you speak?". English is such a "personal" subject, if that is the appropriate word. It really isn't even a subject and only squeezed into one by our uncreative addiction to school and timetables/classes.
I'm all for "objectives" and we pretty much know these, as you state....same for most languages. Learn sound / text connections (alphabet, reading, phonics) Learn essential and functional phrases. Learn the essentials for basic communication (spelling, numbers, day/month/dates, time, colours, pronouns, adjs. etc...). Learn basic verbs and tenses and sprinkle on growing vocabulary.
The point IS there is no empirical or universal order by which this above is to be done. That is the job of a teacher , knowing his/her students. It is invoked through the freedom of that teacher and not by the confines of "page 16 - ex. 4 to 8" . Or "learn/memorize this word list week 6".
| Quote: |
| as it exists now, SMOE (for just one example) starts 3rd graders off with a textbook that goes directly into conversation. No intro for the alphabet and if students haven't had that, well, too bad. |
SMOE or a textbook does not forget to intro the alphabet or whatever -- A TEACHER DOES THAT. A textbook is always a guide. A teacher properly trained will know what's missing (or even just a teacher who is salient enough) and deal with it. The book is not the problem per se.
My point is -- let's not kid ourselves believing that if we only have this or that magic textbook or this or that magic "program" -- learning will take place. There is A LOT more to it.
I'd love to see more teachers spending less time teaching ( jumping through the hoops) and more time on teaching their students how to learn and giving them the resources and skills to be independent learners. Whether that be from a book or from other people/peers or online. This will have the biggest payoff -- learning a language takes WAY too much time to be learned in a classroom.
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
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with all due respect, I'd like to hear from people who support standardization rather than those who do not.
I really didn't mean this to get into a yes it should be or no it shouldn't debate as opposed to how can it be done and when and who is going to do it.
it's my understanding it will be done, actually, and I've heard various stories about when and who is doing it.
I didn't say this earlier because it's been so long since I heard it and I haven't stayed in touch with the individuals who knew about this.
I'd like to hear an update is all. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Moosehead,
That's fair. And I'm never fully against any WHAT, it is always the HOW that is important and, "there's the rub".
I'm involved in this process of standardization of curriculum and yes, it is happening. I'm trying to temper as much as I can, an event happening where language and teaching will get straighjacketed....
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 4:25 am Post subject: |
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Well it all depends on what they set as the 'standard' then doesn't it?
If they are going to use these awful Kyungi-do textbooks as the standard, then I'd say we have a problem.
For one thing the books are designed to be used by Koreans for Koreans, not with a wayguk-in in mind at all. The level is far too easy, and the range of language far too limited. Whenever I hear of Korean education setting a standard for English, it inevitably involves finding the lowest common denominator..........in other words they set goals based on the the expectations on the lowest 10% of the class, because they want to ensure that "EVERYONE" can understand at least this basic level of English by the time they leave elementary school.
Instead of standardization, they just need to empower the foreign teachers to be able to choose and implement appropriate materials for their own classes as they see fit. (I know this may never happen, but as they say ...if you're going to dream)
Furthermore, who is going to decide what the standard should be?
Will it be actual teachers, and if they are teachers, will they even have a clue about what is involved in choosing appropriate materials? Appropriate for whom and when? Or will it be some government-wannabe
education official who decides these things?
Will they even consult foreign English teachers to see what they think?
(not friggin' likely)
There are so many ways this can go horribly wrong that you can see why people such as I would rather leave these decisions up to individual teachers.
Who better than individual teachers know their own classes better or their own students better?
Do you think some boneheaded government official is going to know what's best for your classroom? (God help you if you do)
Suppose for a moment that things do get standardized, and you are handed a textbook that you know is largely inappropriate for the age/level of your students, but you must teach it because that's the new standard.
It will make English education even more of a joke than it already is in Korea. |
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