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Straight from a senators' mouth: Administration mislead...

 
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yawarakaijin



Joined: 08 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Straight from a senators' mouth: Administration mislead... Reply with quote

Is it an impeachable offence to mislead the congress, senate, the people into a war?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3f3_1177864532


Screw all the Bush is Hitler crap, it's tiresome. Screw all the "America is controlled by Jews" it says more about your level of education than anything else.

Here is a senator clearly stating that the administration clearly mislead the people. Is this, or is this not grounds for impeachment?( are there hearings held to determine if impeachment can even be considered?) I am the first to admit that I am somewhat lacking in knowledge of American constitutional law. Can anyone answer this question honestly and without rhetoric?


Last edited by yawarakaijin on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Join Me



Joined: 14 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Supreme Court just ruled tonight that those held at the Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp have a right to challenge their imprisonment in a US court. Who would have guessed you can't just snatch people off the street and hold them indefinitely without allowing them to challenge you on it? Bush needs to be brought before a court on for his war crimes. Bush does not stand for the same values that America represents. Bush is going to make Nixon look like a true American patriot.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080612/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_guantanamo
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ours is a presidential system (as opposed to a parliamentarian system), where the president dominates the executive branch and its various agencies through appointees -- particularly since Andrew Jackson's presidency.

This means that, among other things, the president and those civilians under his authority, decide how they will or will not respond to advice and information the professional bureaucracy, including the military, offers it, and not the other way around. Bureaucratic tensions have existed for decades, the CIA's intelligence directorate's frustration that LBJ escalated the Vietnam War against their advice that America could not win that war no matter how much it escalated its involvement representing only one dramatic example.

DDI Russell Jack Smith wrote:
"How in the hell can the president make that decision in the face of our findings?"

[DCI Richard M. Helms] fixed me with a sulphurous look. "How do I know how he made up his mind? How does any president make decisions? Maybe Lynda Bird was in favor of it. Maybe one of his old friends urged him. Maybe it was something he read. Don't ask me to explain the workings of a president's mind."

I retreated in silence, trying to absorb a lesson. It is one every professional intelligence officer needs to keep constantly in mind. National policy is formed from a welter of considerations, many of them conflicting with one another. The president, the secretary of state, or any high-level policy officer is assaulted and besieged by these considerations in the shape of reports, conversations, telephone calls, news tickers, and his own recollections of past mistakes and triumphs. Lyndon Johnson kept five news tickers running outside his office door, and when he found an item that jibed with a pet idea he tore it off and carried it around in his pocket...national intelligence is just one voice.


Do you and the others who continually lambaste W. Bush for failing to follow the intelligence community's advice and information propose turning this state of affairs around? I agree that presidents' altering, mischaracterizing, "cherry picking," and/or simply discarding the intelligence community's advice and information represents an issue in American govt.

I thought, however, that when the Senate and the House asserted their right to oversee the intelligence community and the president's relationship with it after 1975 that an active Congress would alter this pattern for the better, putting the president on guard and rebalancing his power against theirs, so to speak. They dropped this ball long ago, however. But, still, why, if the Select Intelligence Committee saw the W. Bush Administration mischaracterizing the intelligence community's advice and information on Iraq, did it not object? Is it not Congress's constitutionally-mandated job to check the White House? Why did the Select Intelligence Committee, knowing what it knew then, effectively rubber stamp W. Bush's policies by silent consent? "Sworn to secrecy" and unable to speak? Is that what the framers and Senators such as Frank Church and his colleagues had in mind?

So perhaps we are discussing impeaching the wrong people in the wrong govt branch. And perhaps your Senator here ought to answer a wider range of questions.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
So perhaps we are discussing impeaching the wrong people in the wrong govt branch. And perhaps your Senator here ought to answer a wider range of questions.

Maybe you mean not enough people in not enough branches. The Congress has absolutely abdicated its responsibility to declare war, and ought to also be impeached in almost its entirety (except for a select few like Ron Paul, Robert Byrd, and that lone Congressperson from California who voted against attacking Afghanistan, and maybe a handful of others).
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yawarakaijin



Joined: 08 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of very good points. Thank you for the time you took to answer the post. I for one, do not have all the answers to the questions you pose, and they are very valid ones at that.

I think the congress does have a lot to answer for. I guess it comes down to your definition of a lie. If one can be impeached for lying about sexual relations, can one be impeached for lying about the need to go to war? Is there a difference between lying and misleading or cherry picking?

I'm not as anti-bush as you might believe. Simply put though, from what I have seen from this presidency, I am merely unable to entertain the notion that this administration was simply "mistaken" about many of it's assumptions in the run up to war.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yawarakaijin wrote:
If one can be impeached for lying about sexual relations...


Those who want W. Bush's impeachment want it for this reason most of all: payback for Clinton. And for that reason, I tend to dismiss them and their pretexts-couched-as-arguments.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
yawarakaijin wrote:
If one can be impeached for lying about sexual relations...


Those who want W. Bush's impeachment want it for this reason most of all: payback for Clinton. And for that reason, I tend to dismiss them and their pretexts-couched-as-arguments.

I and most people I know want Bush and Cheney impeached for war crimes and high crimes and misdemeanors. I am no big fan of Bill Clinton, but I just find it surreal that Clinton could get impeached for lying about sex while Bush gets away with crimes against humanity.
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djsmnc



Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
Gopher wrote:
yawarakaijin wrote:
If one can be impeached for lying about sexual relations...


Those who want W. Bush's impeachment want it for this reason most of all: payback for Clinton. And for that reason, I tend to dismiss them and their pretexts-couched-as-arguments.

I and most people I know want Bush and Cheney impeached for war crimes and high crimes and misdemeanors. I am no big fan of Bill Clinton, but I just find it surreal that Clinton could get impeached for lying about sex while Bush gets away with crimes against humanity.



I wouldn't call them crimes against humanity. It was poor planning and inefficiency that caused the problem in the first place. What we should have done was leave those countries alone and made America an extremely heavily fortified land with a powerful infrastructure and let the rest of the world kill itself. Oh well...
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jaykimf



Joined: 24 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
yawarakaijin wrote:
If one can be impeached for lying about sexual relations...


Those who want W. Bush's impeachment want it for this reason most of all: payback for Clinton. And for that reason, I tend to dismiss them and their pretexts-couched-as-arguments.


You seem to have confused what you imagine to be true with reality.
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