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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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 Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: Future American POW's are SCREWED! McClatchy Report. |
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20080618/wl_mcclatchy/2969819
All thanks to good old Bush. Sickening to think this man has been entrusted to wage this war.
Some interesting excerpts:
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The mistreatment of detainees at Bagram, some legal experts said, may have been a violation of the 1949 Geneva Convention on prisoners of war, which forbids violence against or humiliating treatment of detainees.
The U.S. War Crimes Act of 1996 imposes penalties up to death for such mistreatment.
At Bagram, however, the rules didn't apply. In February 2002 , President Bush issued an order denying suspected Taliban and al Qaida detainees prisoner-of-war status. He also denied them basic Geneva protections known as Common Article Three, which sets a minimum standard for humane treatment.
Without those parameters, it's difficult to say what acts were or were not war crimes, said Charles Garraway , a former colonel and legal adviser for the British army and a leading international expert on military law.
Bush's order made it hard to prosecute soldiers for breaking such rules under the military's basic law, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, in large part because defense attorneys could claim that troops on the ground didn't know what was allowed.
In sweeping aside Common Article Three, the Bush administration created an environment in which abuse such as that at Bagram was more likely, said Garraway, a former professor at the U.S. Naval War College .
"I think it's completely predictable, because you no longer have standards," he said.
In 2006, Bush pushed Congress to narrow the definition of a war crime under the War Crimes Act, making prosecution even more difficult. |
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Senior Pentagon officials refused to be interviewed for this article. In response to a series of questions and interview requests, Col. Gary Keck , a Defense Department spokesman, released this statement:
" The Department of Defense policy is clear - we treat all detainees humanely. The United States operates safe, humane and professional detention operations for unlawful enemy combatants at war with this country."
No U.S. military officer above the rank of captain has been called to account for what happened at Bagram. |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Future American POWS are screwed? You mean it can get worse than getting your head sawed off and having the video put on the internet. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Beej wrote: |
| Future American POWS are screwed? You mean it can get worse than getting your head sawed off and having the video put on the internet. |
Honest question. Just out of curiosity. Have there been confirmed incidents of American POW's getting their heads sawn off? I've seen it happen to civilians/government workers/NGO's but have yet to see any videos of it happening to US troops.
Also, quite falsely I might add, you are operating under the assumption that American troops are primarily coming into contact with the hard core Al-qaeda radical islamic fanatic types. They are not.
Secondly. If you are trying to argue that everything this current administration has done is just fine and dandy, cause hey, look what our "enemy" does, then....ah.  |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:59 am Post subject: |
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Every single US POW in the war on has been murdered. Every single one.
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slaughtered' by al-Qaeda
From Ned Parker in Baghdad
THE bodies of two American soldiers who disappeared last weekend were recovered yesterday as al-Qaeda in Iraq claimed that it had slit their throats after kidnapping them. An Iraqi general said that the corpses showed signs of �barbaric torture�.
�Coalition forces have recovered what we believe are the remains of the soldiers,� Major-General William Caldwell, a US military spokesman, told reporters. He refused to comment on how the young men abducted at a roadblock near Yusufiyah last Friday night had been killed.
An internet statement said that the new head of al-Qaeda in Iraq had �slit the throats� of the two men. It used the word �slaughter� |
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article677170.ece |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee"]Every single US POW in the war on has been murdered. Every single one. |
Blatantly false Joo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_P.O.W.s_in_2003_Invasion_of_Iraq
The timeline is a blur to me but I believe these releases came about BEFORE the average Iraqi learned about what was going on in Abu Ghraib. Cause and effect? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:09 am Post subject: |
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sorry after the the fall of Baghdad.
as for cause and effect can anyone show a time where Al Qaeda showed mercy on anyone they captured? |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
sorry after the the fall of Baghdad.
as for cause and effect can anyone show a time where Al Qaeda showed mercy on anyone they captured? |
Again Joo. Sorry to burst your bubble but the Average American troop is not running into hard core Al-Qaedaists. It is all a moot point anyway. If you want to judge your level of humanity versus that of Al-qaeda you are always going to come out smelling like a bed of roses.
Bush has set a precedent that is going to harm American soldiers for decades to come. What happens if war breaks out between the US and China? What happens the next time American POW's are taken in an African aid mission. Bush and his administration FUCKED UP, there is no way to deny it.
We all know that no high ranking American official is ever going to be held accountable for the actions of this administration. You know what that means Joo? No high ranking Chinese or Russian or Burmese or Zimbabwean official will ever be held accountable. Why? Because they were just fighting terrorists. And as we all know, as all it takes to become a "terrorist" is to be "against you", there are going to be a lot more "terrorists" in Chinese or Zimbabwean prisons getting the shaft, perhaps literally, in the future. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:01 am Post subject: |
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While Bush certainly did us no good, it's going too far to blame him for giving 'cover' to future bad actions of random foreign soldiers. If I recall correctly, McCain was tortured 40 years ago (in that war Bush avoided). I think plenty of countries have not given up on torture--after all, we outsource a lot of prisoners for torture to other countries.
Edit:
But yes, he is a vile, low-down scumbag. |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| If im taken as a POW in China it would be fantastic to get my female chinese guard's panties put over my head ala Abu Graib. That kind of thing doesnt come cheap in Shanghai you know. Hopefully she is hot. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
While Bush certainly did us no good, it's going too far to blame him for giving 'cover' to future bad actions of random foreign soldiers. If I recall correctly, McCain was tortured 40 years ago (in that war Bush avoided). I think plenty of countries have not given up on torture--after all, we outsource a lot of prisoners for torture to other countries.
Edit:
But yes, he is a vile, low-down scumbag. |
You are correct. George Bush wouldn't be the cause of these regimes resorting to tortue but he sure as hell has made it more difficult to prosecute them. |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
While Bush certainly did us no good, it's going too far to blame him for giving 'cover' to future bad actions of random foreign soldiers. If I recall correctly, McCain was tortured 40 years ago (in that war Bush avoided). I think plenty of countries have not given up on torture--after all, we outsource a lot of prisoners for torture to other countries.
Edit:
But yes, he is a vile, low-down scumbag. |
You are correct. George Bush wouldn't be the cause of these regimes resorting to tortue but he sure as hell has made it more difficult to prosecute them. |
Prosecute? Who do you prosecute? What jurisdiction? After the war is over, the losers can be "prosecuted" by the victors, but thats not really a real court of law now is it. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Beej wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
While Bush certainly did us no good, it's going too far to blame him for giving 'cover' to future bad actions of random foreign soldiers. If I recall correctly, McCain was tortured 40 years ago (in that war Bush avoided). I think plenty of countries have not given up on torture--after all, we outsource a lot of prisoners for torture to other countries.
Edit:
But yes, he is a vile, low-down scumbag. |
You are correct. George Bush wouldn't be the cause of these regimes resorting to tortue but he sure as hell has made it more difficult to prosecute them. |
Prosecute? Who do you prosecute? What jurisdiction? After the war is over, the losers can be "prosecuted" by the victors, but thats not really a real court of law now is it. |
Heard of him? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milo%C5%A1evi%C4%87
If you are of the opinion that, because the serbs won the war there is nothing more to be said, then I would agree with the argument you have set forth. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: |
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[quote="yawarakaijin"]
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
sorry after the the fall of Baghdad.
as for cause and effect can anyone show a time where Al Qaeda showed mercy on anyone they captured? |
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Again Joo. Sorry to burst your bubble but the Average American troop is not running into hard core Al-Qaedaists. It is all a moot point anyway. If you want to judge your level of humanity versus that of Al-qaeda you are always going to come out smelling like a bed of roses. |
Well the insurgents are for the most part Bathists or Khomeni followers. They are sinister too.
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Bush has set a precedent that is going to harm American soldiers for decades to come. What happens if war breaks out between the US and China? What happens the next time American POW's are taken in an African aid mission. Bush and his administration FUCKED UP, there is no way to deny it.
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I understand your point. It certainly hasn't helped the US That being said:
1)
I think the US did similar stuff in other wars it just was reported.
2)
the conditions even at their worst were probably no worse than what goes on in most prisons around the world for POWs. A lot worse probably goes on in much of the world.
3) When has anyone shown the US mercy anyway?
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We all know that no high ranking American official is ever going to be held accountable for the actions of this administration. You know what that means Joo? No high ranking Chinese or Russian or Burmese or Zimbabwean official will ever be held accountable. Why? Because they were just fighting terrorists. And as we all know, as all it takes to become a "terrorist" is to be "against you", there are going to be a lot more "terrorists" in Chinese or Zimbabwean prisons getting the shaft, perhaps literally, in the future. |
They would probably act in such a way no matter what the US did or didn't.
The actions of the US probably made it worse but not so much so. |
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ReeseDog
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Have there been confirmed incidents of American POW's getting their heads sawn off? |
How about the soldiers who had their hearts cut out and their nuts stuffed into their mouths? They still had their heads, though. I guess it's not as bad... |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
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I'm not entirely sure how these things work as I've never studied military history, but isn't the Geneva convention applicable only to armies mustered by recognized states? Not to say it shouldn't be applied to terrorists (or as due to perspective shifts what some might call freedom fighters), but it wasn't designed for that, was it?
Which leads to the question, if Al Qaeda isn't a recognized military force why are we sending the army and marines after them? Wouldn't this have been better handled by the intelligence and law enforcement agencies? Why didn't we just call in the Mousad? |
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