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Grammar questions re: colons and semi-colons ;(
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blurgalurgalurga



Joined: 18 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:32 am    Post subject: Grammar questions re: colons and semi-colons ;( Reply with quote

Interesting article here from Slate about the death of the semi-colon in the modern world.
http://www.slate.com/id/2194087/

I always liked semi-colons, and use them a lot; however, I sometimes wonder if I have remembered my lessons correctly, and whether I should in fact be using a colon instead.

Here's a question for the grammarians: if a student asks you what the difference is between a colon and a semi-colon, what do you tell them? Explain in 50 words or less, please.

Also: is this correct?

"He was a complete monkey: he hurled his feces; he loved bananas; he smelled of the jungle; and, most tellingly, his name was George."
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Kimchi Cowboy



Joined: 17 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was always taught to use a capital immediately following a full colon.

Also, at the end of a series, you don't need a semi colon between the second-to-last item and the last item (in your example, I would use a comma between "jungle" and "and".)

But, the rules on this sort of thing tend to differ from place-to-place, as well as from *cough* expert-to-expert. I see nothing egregiously wrong with what you've written; however, I would do it slightly differently.
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SirFink



Joined: 05 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was taught to mainly use them in lists that had commas to make the sentence less confusing to the reader, i.e. "I have lived in Seoul, Korea; Tokyo, Japan; and Beijing, China."

Like nearly everything in English (or any other language, for that matter) everything is constantly changing and evolving. There is no pope of English to hand down the official law on what a semicolon should be used for. If the semicolon dies off, so be it. It had a good run of a few hundred years and will now be replaced with all that "txt msg" crap the kids write these days.
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friendoken



Joined: 19 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been called on this by my professor's a few times; I find the proper usage of these punctuation marks difficult to grasp.

I think a semi-colon separates two independant clauses that comprise one sentence, each capable of standing on its own as a grammatically correct sentence.

I am going to travel soon. I plan on visiting: Thailand, Japan, Vietnam, and Cambodia.

I think a colon marks the beginning of a list of items.

Check out Strunk and White "The Elements of Style"
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blurgalurgalurga



Joined: 18 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought you could put what was otherwise a sentence fragment after a semi-colon; this, for example.

I wish I had a copy of Sprunk and White's...I sold mine after I graduated. Suppose I should get a freshie...
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Stevie_B



Joined: 14 May 2008

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Grammar questions re: colons and semi-colons ;( Reply with quote

blurgalurgalurga wrote:
Interesting article here from Slate about the death of the semi-colon in the modern world.
http://www.slate.com/id/2194087/

I always liked semi-colons, and use them a lot; however, I sometimes wonder if I have remembered my lessons correctly, and whether I should in fact be using a colon instead.

Here's a question for the grammarians: if a student asks you what the difference is between a colon and a semi-colon, what do you tell them? Explain in 50 words or less, please.

Also: is this correct?

"He was a complete monkey: he hurled his feces; he loved bananas; he smelled of the jungle; and, most tellingly, his name was George."


Incorrect! There is no need to use a semi-colon here. Remember this: Only use a semi-colon where it could be replaced with a conjunction, and don't use one at all if it is not absolutely necessary. A semi-colon can also be used to delimit items in a list when each item is a phrase rather than a single word.

A full colon marks the start of a list, or a following complete statement, as in the paragraph above.
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Tiberious aka Sparkles



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

friendoken wrote:
I plan on visiting: Thailand, Japan, Vietnam, and Cambodia.


Why bother with the unnecessary colon?
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friendoken



Joined: 19 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote:
friendoken wrote:
I plan on visiting: Thailand, Japan, Vietnam, and Cambodia.


Why bother with the unnecessary colon?


You are correct Tiberious, I misused the colon in that example.

I quote from Strunk and White, 4th edition page 7, "Use a colon after an independant clause to introduce a list of particulars, an appositive, an amplification, or an illustrative quotation. A colon tells the reader that what follows is closely related to the preceeding clause. The colon has more effect than the comma, less power to separate than the semi-colon, and more formality than the dash. It usually follows an independant clause and should not separate a verb from its complement or a preposition from its object"

Thus, I should have written, "I plan on visiting four countries: Thailand, Japan, Vietnam, and Cambodia." This is grammarically correct usage of the colon.
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nobbyken



Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Location: Yongin ^^

PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always use a colon where the next statement is an explanation of the previous sentence. The other time I use it is at the end of a statement announcing a list is to follow.

The semi-colon being heavier than a coma and used to link sentences which are very close in meaning.

A-Z of English Grammar & Usage, Geoffrey Leech ...
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jajdude



Joined: 18 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nobbyken wrote:
heavier than a coma.


Now that's heavy.
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blurgalurgalurga



Joined: 18 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Heavier than a coma;" wasn't that a Curt Cobain lyric?
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billybrobby



Joined: 09 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The semi-colon is the salad fork of conjunctions. It doesn't do much that the more common utensils can't do, and only fancy people use them.
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thematrixiam



Joined: 31 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use it for a mixed variety of things.

To separate two statements; but they really don't want to be apart.

When I think, that for dramatic purposes, a comma just wouldn't cut it; because it offers a heavier stop.

I know there are instances when I would use it that it typically wouldn't be accepted as norm, but I use it anyways... I think that has to do with me being a writer and not giving a damn. I get to the point where I just like messing with shit and seeing how it looks.

I can't really give you an example of that; as it usually just comes as I write it; but that shouldn't really matter; I'm sure you guys can just guess and figure it out on your own.


Of course you can use it for a list of things to put in a list, such as: groceries;
sex toys; pizza condiments; preferred laxatives, and favorite Gumby episodes.
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billybrobby



Joined: 09 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another unique snowflake who asks the teacher, "Why can't I color the sky green?"

Quote:
Of course you can use it for a list of things to put in a list, such as: groceries; sex toys; pizza condiments; preferred laxatives, and favorite Gumby episodes.


I never usually care about grammar, but no no no. If you have "such as" you don't need a colon. And all the semi-colons should be commas. It looks like a train wreck the way you have it.

I like this quote by hemingway:

Quote:
My attitude toward punctuation is that it ought to be as conventional as possible. The game of golf would lose a good deal if croquet mallets and billiard cues were allowed on the putting green. You ought to be able to show that you can do it a good deal better than anyone else with the regular tools before you have a license to bring in your own improvements.
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thematrixiam



Joined: 31 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

billybrobby wrote:


I never usually care about grammar, but no no no. If you have "such as" you don't need a colon. And all the semi-colons should be commas. It looks like a train wreck the way you have it.



Ya... I can't say I go around making lists, or proof reading my comments, that often.

Quote:


I like this quote by hemingway:

My attitude toward punctuation is that it ought to be as conventional as possible. The game of golf would lose a good deal if croquet mallets and billiard cues were allowed on the putting green. You ought to be able to show that you can do it a good deal better than anyone else with the regular tools before you have a license to bring in your own improvements.


I disagree with this. Lots of people can't use conventional methods well but manage to use others way better than amateurs or even pros. For instance, painters with out eyes, or painters with out hands. Or, architects. Some architects never design a single normal looking building, but can come up with loads of wonderful creations with no prior experience with convention.
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