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Toju

Joined: 06 Mar 2008
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: Grammar Question - Bring vs. Bringing |
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Someone has asked me to ask this grammar question. Any help appreciated.
'Rather than bring his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to belnd in.'
'Rather than bringing his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to blend in.'
Is it ok to use both bring and bringing in this context and, if so, why? |
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bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Question - Bring vs. Bringing |
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Toju wrote: |
Someone has asked me to ask this grammar question. Any help appreciated.
'Rather than bring his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to belnd in.'
'Rather than bringing his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to blend in.'
Is it ok to use both bring and bringing in this context and, if so, why? |
"Bring" is correct in your example.
The form after "rather than" should coincide with that of the main verb "strives" which is in the simple present, NOT the present continuous. In the example, "bring" is also simple present (subjunctive).
Thus, also correct would be "Rather than bringing his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl is striving to blend in." |
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Toju

Joined: 06 Mar 2008
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you - I am self confessed grammar retard - still kind of shocked that I was allowed here to teach....! |
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hugekebab

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Toju wrote: |
Thank you - I am self confessed grammar retard - still kind of shocked that I was allowed here to teach....! |
Not as complicated as it seems mate; the two verbs need to be the same form. If you're not sure about the verb tenses have a look online for some tutorials. |
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The Cosmic Hum

Joined: 09 May 2003 Location: Sonic Space
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: hmm |
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Bacasper explains it very well.
I would add that both examples are acceptable.
'Rather than bring his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to blend in.'
'Rather than bringing his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to blend in.'
The first is textbook grammar parallelism.
The second example puts more emphasis on the continuous form.
There is a tendency in prescriptivist grammar to follow the rule of parallelism � in this case - matching verb tenses; however, it is not a hard and fast rule and can often lead to a sentence feeling unnaturally contrived. There is plenty of room for variation in this example for an experienced writer, but undoubtedly, if you don�t know what you are doing with this form, it would be well advised to follow parallel sentence structure.
If this was a question on a test�as in which was the better answer�.then certainly the first is the better choice and you could explain the parameters of parallelism.
If this was a question of style�then be prepared to explain the difference between the present continuous and the present simple and the not so subtle shift of focus. |
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bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: hmm |
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The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
Bacasper explains it very well.
I would add that both examples are acceptable.
'Rather than bring his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to blend in.'
'Rather than bringing his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to blend in.'
The first is textbook grammar parallelism.
The second example puts more emphasis on the continuous form.
There is a tendency in prescriptivist grammar to follow the rule of parallelism � in this case - matching verb tenses; however, it is not a hard and fast rule and can often lead to a sentence feeling unnaturally contrived. There is plenty of room for variation in this example for an experienced writer, but undoubtedly, if you don�t know what you are doing with this form, it would be well advised to follow parallel sentence structure.
If this was a question on a test�as in which was the better answer�.then certainly the first is the better choice and you could explain the parameters of parallelism.
If this was a question of style�then be prepared to explain the difference between the present continuous and the present simple and the not so subtle shift of focus. |
I might buy this, except for the following corrections:
"If this were a question..."
and
"...not-so-subtle shift..." |
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branchsnapper
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think primly quoting a rule that does not need to be followed, and in fact will sometimes make the sentence sound worse, is really explaining something well. Bogus rules are not all that helpful, though I suppose as cosmic suggests this one is a useful rule of thumb.
A natural example from a google search (there are countless to be found - this one relates to trained squirrels): When it wants to alert its owner to a call, it waves and moves about rather than making a sound. |
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Thiuda

Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Question - Bring vs. Bringing |
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Toju wrote: |
'Rather than bring his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to belnd in.'
'Rather than bringing his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to blend in.'
Is it ok to use both bring and bringing in this context and, if so, why? |
The main clause of your sentences reads, "Grohl strives to blend in." It is in the simple present tense, indicating the Grohl habitually strives to blend in. The subordinate clause, however, can be in a different tense depending on what the author is trying to express: If the author uses the continuous form bringing, then the author is stating that, since Grohl always strives to blend in, he didn't bring his frenzied Nirvana style to this project. If on the other hand the author is trying to express that Grohl doesn't bring his frenzied Nirvana style to many projects, since he always strives to blend in, then he would use the simple present form bring.
I believe this is what The Cosmic Hum was stating as well. Further evidence and some examples can be found in the article Sequence of Verb Tenses. |
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branchsnapper
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Absolutely wrong - I love how these wrong things come with helpful links. The usage for this is very subtle.
Last edited by branchsnapper on Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:14 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Thiuda

Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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branchsnapper wrote: |
Absolutley wrong - I love how these wrong things come with helpful links. The usage for this is very subtle. |
Why am I wrong? If I made a mistake please be kind enough to explain it to me, so that I can avoid making the same mistake in the future.
Sequence of Verb Tenses wrote: |
As long as the main clause's verb is in neither the past nor the past perfect tense, the verb of the subordinate clause can be in any tense that conveys meaning accurately. |
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jadarite

Joined: 01 Sep 2007 Location: Andong, Yeongyang, Seoul, now Pyeongtaek
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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I like reading books. (one action done many times)
I read a book. (one action done one time) |
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branchsnapper
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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The general sequence rules do not apply here - this usage depends on the phrase "rather than". Surely by following your own instinct you can tell that the two sentences of the OP mean quite the same thing, and to my mind it would be a little harsh to call either "wrong". |
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Thiuda

Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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branchsnapper wrote: |
The general sequence rules do not apply here - this usage depends on the phrase "rather than". Surely by following your own instinct you can tell that the two sentences of the OP mean quite the same thing, and to my mind it would be a little harsh to call either "wrong". |
Rather than is a subordinating conjunction. In our case the subordinate conjunctions are;
'Rather than bring his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to blend in.'
and
'Rather than bringing his frenzied Nirvana style to each project, Grohl strives to blend in.'
The sequence rules apply, a verb in a subordinate clause does not need to carry the same tense as the verb in the main clause. If you had read my first post carefully, you would have understood that I'm saying, "Both are correct, depending on what the author is trying to express." |
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branchsnapper
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, the form of the verb depends on the subordinating construction - so that if you used the similar construction "in place of" you would definitely need to use an "ing" form. "Rather than" is a subordinating construction which usually allows both forms of the verb, so I agree, both could be regarded as correct. However, and importantly, there is no real change in the meaning - certainly not the concrete change you mentioned. |
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Thiuda

Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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branchsnapper wrote: |
Yes, the form of the verb depends on the subordinating construction - so that if you used the similar construction "in place of" you would definitely need to use an "ing" form. "Rather than" is a subordinating construction which usually allows both forms of the verb, so I agree, both could be regarded as correct. However, and importantly, there is no real change in the meaning - certainly not the concrete change you mentioned. |
Rather than is a subordinating conjunction; if we use it, then the verb in the subordinate clause need not carry the same tense as the verb in the main clause. If, however, we switch from the subordinating conjunction to the preposition "in place of," or the stylistically more pleasing "instead of," then the resulting structure, "Instead of bringing his frenzied Nirvana style to each project," is no longer a subordinate clause, but an adverbial adjunct. Adverbial adjuncts are part of the core meaning of the sentence, but happen to leave a meaningful sentence if removed.
Adverbial adjunct ≠ subordinating conjunction ∴ your argument = �.
Last edited by Thiuda on Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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