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marlow
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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 Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: Learning Korean: The Hierarchy Embedded in Language |
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Does learning Korean bother you as far as all the words you have to use for your "superiors"?
It philosophically bothers me, but I guess I don't care.... Well, English has its own system of politeness we follow without being aware of it, and it's subtle enough that Koreans will probably never learn it. I use it, and it doesn't bother me. But Korean is more obvious. I don't know.
Unrelated, I hate a Korean guy in his early fifties saying 안녕 to me instead of something more polite. I thought professionals used polite forms among each other regardless of age. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Learning Korean: The Hierarchy Embedded in Language |
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| marlow wrote: |
Does learning Korean bother you as far as all the words you have to use for your "superiors"?
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If you speak Korean speak it as the natives would; this includes using the necessary honorifics. I think it sounds ridiculous when you hear foreigners address their headmasters with terms like 고마워, or 안녕. Of course, sometimes it's through a lack of Korean language skills which is more acceptable. But still, speak Korean as a Korean would. At the same time, make sure your students and other Koreans 'beneath you' use the proper terms when addressing you. |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Learning Korean: The Hierarchy Embedded in Language |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| At the same time, make sure your students and other Koreans 'beneath you' use the proper terms when addressing you. |
This is easier said than done. I always use the proper honourifics for my "seniors" as etiquette requires, but often have to correct students who use 반말. |
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marlow
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| They call them honorifics, but isn't just demeaning yourself? |
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Hyeon Een
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| marlow wrote: |
| They call them honorifics, but isn't just demeaning yourself? |
Yeah like the way I totally demean myself by saying "Please, have a seat" to someone I've just met but say "Sit down" to a dog. I don't know why I demean myself like that. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| You have to guard against the danger of being too polite also. Finding the appropriate level of speech can be tricky sometimes. |
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marlow
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Hyeon Een wrote: |
| marlow wrote: |
| They call them honorifics, but isn't it just demeaning yourself? |
Yeah like the way I totally demean myself by saying "Please, have a seat" to someone I've just met but say "Sit down" to a dog. I don't know why I demean myself like that. |
Yeah, being nice to someone you've just met is common sense, and dogs aren't people.
I think that if I respect someone five years younger than me, and they come into my office, in English I'd say, "Would you like a cup of coffee, or something else to drink?" If it were an older person I didn't like at all, I'd probably just say "There's coffee over there if you can find a cup." In Korean if the person were older I'd have to use the polite form of the verb "to eat" even if I didn't like the person.
Anyway, I'm not fluent enough in Korean to use it everyday, but I don't see any point in being more "polite" to someone just because they are older. The "politeness" extends further, as well. I always feel that principals and older people here want more "respect" than I would give my grandfather or someone like my mentor (an older man whom I really respect).
I'm not trying to be pissy, I'm just trying to work through this. The system of hierarchy is embedded in the language, and I'm not a do as the Romans when in Rome type. I like to respect those who deserve my respect. |
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red_devil
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Honor? Manners? Pfff, that got killed a long time ago in the US. But anyone that has old school parents will remember getting the belt + being told to respect your elders. Actually if you think of the older generations of American culture, and how conservative we were back then - it's not too different from conservative Asian culture...or even Middle Eastern culture.
I actually think it's great that Asian culture in general has embedded this sense of respect for your elders in the language itself. Part of it is of course the long history and deep (confucian) social structure of Korea...but it's no surprise that most Westerners rebel indignantly against this.
In case you wanted to know more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_honorifics |
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demaratusinTW
Joined: 25 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: |
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It doesn't really matter. Fourteen languages plus, there's room to move up, maybe become fluent.
Then you reach the top.
But don't get down, think you're dirt. You're not that dumb!! |
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earthbound14
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:06 am Post subject: Re: Learning Korean: The Hierarchy Embedded in Language |
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| marlow wrote: |
Does learning Korean bother you as far as all the words you have to use for your "superiors"?
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Ya, I don't get it... it seems over the top. I often get accused of using 반말 even though I use basic polite Korean just about all the time, children or elderly.
Sometimes children correct me and tell me I don't need to speak to them like that. Sometimes I get accused of using 반말 by sensitive people who are older than me. It seems disrespectful to me to speak down to kids and childish for those who are older to expect such over the top, superficial respect.
If anything it seems to be disrespectful to have rules that dictate who you are and aren't respectful to. it also limits ones ability to make friends with people who are older or in positions of power. I don't like this and treat all Koreans with the same kind of friendly respect (이요 endings rather than 임니다 enduings) in the hopes of building a friendship and trust on something more than my ability to say the right thing or kiss azz.
While there may be sensitive people in Korea and the language does support this, most people are pretty cool and don't get all sticky. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| I only use 'imnida/seumnida' with my VP and principal, and I've spoken to each of them in Korean a grand total of six times. Anybody else who takes offense can go screw themselves, unless they're over the age of 65. If I can guess, I'll use it with a really old person, but otherwise "a yo/eo yo" does the trick. They're a little too touchy here. |
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Rum Jungle
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: North Asia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Learning Korean: The Hierarchy Embedded in Language |
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| marlow wrote: |
Does learning Korean bother you as far as all the words you have to use for your "superiors"?
It philosophically bothers me, but I guess I don't care.... Well, English has its own system of politeness we follow without being aware of it, and it's subtle enough that Koreans will probably never learn it. I use it, and it doesn't bother me. But Korean is more obvious. I don't know.
Unrelated, I hate a Korean guy in his early fifties saying 안녕 to me instead of something more polite. I thought professionals used polite forms among each other regardless of age. |
I see what you're saying. 6 levels of honorifics according to that Wikipedia article. I'm all for respect and a bit of deference meeting a...I don't know...Nobel Prize Winner/President/Monarch. Seems a bit much to anyone non-Korean. It's their language, though. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Yes, there seems something very "Do you know who I am?"-ish about Koreans who don't get their minimum requirement of honorifics thrown their way. Very annoying. But generally, I just give out the -yo ending to elders and strangers (college age or above) and hope for the best. Never have a problem.
For those who think English has no honorific... the 2nd person plural pronoun you is an honorific/respectful form, which began displacing the then familiar 2nd person singular thou sometime around Cromwell's day. IINM |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| I only use 'imnida/seumnida' with my VP and principal, and I've spoken to each of them in Korean a grand total of six times. Anybody |
These forms are not necessarily polite. For example, if I said to my principal the following,
1 - (교장선생님) 주고 싶은 선물 있습니다 (Principal) I have a gift I want to give you
2 - (교장선생님) 드리고 싶은 선물 있어요
The second sentence would be much more polite. The first would just sound bizzare. The nida endings are usually used in a neutral sense to an audience - like a newscast - or in conjunction with the most polite verb conjunctions in highly formal settings. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| Yes, there seems something very "Do you know who I am?"-ish about Koreans who don't get their minimum requirement of honorifics thrown their way. Very annoying. But generally, I just give out the -yo ending to elders and strangers (college age or above) and hope for the best. Never have a problem. |
I can understand that. I also resent using honorific forms to older people who have been rude to me, but by using these forms even to rude older people you actually show a lot of class and make them lose a certain amount of face by maintaining a level of respect. It might not feel that way, but other Koreans will certainly view it as such. Back home it wouldn't look classy swearing back at a rude passenger on the subway for example. In Korean they have an expression for this, something about shit sticking to dogs or something. |
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