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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: Saudi king appeals for tolerance |
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Saudi king appeals for tolerance
King Abdullah and co-host King Juan Carlos of Spain
King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has called on followers of the world's main religions to turn away from extremism and embrace a spirit of reconciliation.
The king was opening a conference in Madrid which brings together Muslims, Christians, Jews and Buddhists.
He said the great conflicts of history were not caused by religion, but by the misinterpretation of religion.
King Juan Carlos of Spain, the co-host, said Spain had always sought to promote international dialogue.
Critics have dismissed the gathering as a propaganda gimmick by the Saudis who, they say, are not best placed to host a meeting on religious tolerance.
The tragedies we have experienced throughout history were not the fault of religion but because of the extremism that has been adopted by some followers of all the religions, and of all political systems
King Abdullah
Send us your comments
Wahhabism, the strain of Sunni Islam that is officially practised in Saudi Arabia, is considered one of the religion's most conservative and intolerant forms.
"My brothers, we must tell the world that differences don't need to lead to disputes," King Abdullah said.
SAUDI |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Saudi king appeals for tolerance |
I wonder if any of the gathered leaders pointed out the absurdity of the leader of a country which bans all religions apart from Islam appealing for 'tolerance'. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer, if you believe your own post, I've got some magic beans to sell you. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: |
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...the concept of Taqiyya (التقية - 'fear, guard against')[2] refers to a dispensation allowing believers to conceal their faith when under threat, persecution or compulsion.[3]...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya
http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm
You fell for it.
Back in reality:
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=662057
| Quote: |
Saudi textbooks still teaching hate: report
Jews, Christians referred to as apes and swine
Charles Lewis, National Post Published: Thursday, July 17, 2008
More On This Story
Christian are 'swine', Jews 'condemnable', say Saudi textbooks
Despite promises to the U.S., Saudi students are still learning from textbooks that espouse the killing of homosexuals and vilification of non-Muslims.Fahad Shadeed/ReutersDespite promises to the U.S., Saudi students are still learning from textbooks that espouse the killing of homosexuals and vilification of non-Muslims.
Despite a promise to remove attacks on other faiths from the public school curriculum, Saudi Arabia's state-produced textbooks still refer to Jews and Christians as apes and swine, insist that Jews conspire to take over the world and on Judgment Day "the rocks or the trees" will call out to Muslims to kill the Jews, says the Washington-based Hudson Institute, a conservative think tank.
The textbooks, used by five million students in the kingdom every year, as well as in many Saudi-funded institutions outside the country, also attack homosexuals and Muslims who do not practice a fundamentalist form of Islam.
For example:
� "The punishment for homosexuality is death. The companions of the Prophet were unanimous on killing although they differed ... in the manner of killing. Some companions ... stated that a homosexual is to be burned with fire ... he should be stoned or thrown from a high place."
� "You can hardly find an example of sedition in which the Jews have not played a role."
� Zionism has achieved its aims through a variety of "destructive movements" including the Rotary Clubs and International Lions Clubs, which are "Masonic clubs based in America and they have secret agents all over the world."
One of the suggested activities for Grade 8 students is to "write a composition on the danger of imitating infidels, giving some examples of imitation among the students and then present it to his classmates."
Nina Shea, author of the report, Saudi Arabia's Curriculum of Intolerance, said the deeper problem the textbooks represent is a noxious ideology that is being exported all over the world.
"This ideology is kindling to [Osama] bin Laden's match," she said.
"It radicalizes those who are indoctrinated with it. The aim is to radicalize students to hate the West, hate non-Muslims, to hate Jews, and to say that killing is sanctioned by God.
"Saudi Arabia is making every effort to make it mainstream in the Muslim world and make it the dominant interpretation of Islam."
She said the Saudi education system is the main reason Web sites designed to recruit suicide bombers are directed so heavily at Saudi youth.
The ultra-conservative Sunni kingdom practises a form of Islam called Wahhabism, which advocates jihad.
Ms. Shea, who produced her first report on the textbooks in 2006, said Saudi Arabia agreed to make changes after pressure from the United States. The deadline is September, 2008.
"[The State Department] had to look like we're doing something in the face of this really toxic teaching," she said.
"It's so indefensible and so inexplicable that this is being disseminated. It's not even private clerics or an enemy who is disseminating this. This is our ally."
The international human rights lawyer said her latest study looked at the textbooks used in the 2007-08 school year. But she found little difference from the books studied for her first report and does not believe the Saudis will meet the September deadline.
Rather, she believes they agreed to make the changes as a "publicity ploy."
"They want to take some of the pressure off by promising to make the changes ,but they are fairly confident that the State Department will not go after them and will not even bother to open the books or translate them, which they have not done at all."
And when a new president enters the White House in January, the agreement will likely be forgotten, she said.
Ms. Shea believes Americans give Saudi Arabia an easy ride because of their country's dependence on foreign oil.
"Oil independence is really important for this reason. Because it's going to be very hard for the Saudis to change."
Officials at the Saudi embassy in Washington, D.C., declined to comment.
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Camon. |
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merkurix
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: Not far from the deep end.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: |
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There is a teeny, tiny crack of hope:
http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=6247
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FIRST CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR SAUDI ARABIA
Negotiations are underway to build the first Catholic church in Saudi Arabia with King Abdullah lending his support for its construction.
Vatican Radio reports the Vatican and the Saudi government are currently in talks to allow the church despite the kingdoms ban on allowing the construction of any non-Muslim place of worship.
No religion other than Islam is allowed to schedule public services, and even the possession of bibles, rosaries, and crucifixes is forbidden.
Saudi Arabia is the only country on the Arabian Peninsula without a Catholic church despite the 800,000 Catholics - virtually all of who are foreign workers.
While Saudi Arabia does not have formal diplomatic relations with the Holy See, King Abdullah became the first reigning Saudi monarch ever to visit the Vatican last November.
Commenting after his meeting with the Pope Vatican officials confirmed the Pontiff pressed for permission to open a Catholic church in the kingdom.
Holy See spokesman Fr Federico Lombardi said that opening a Catholic parish in the Islamic land would be "a historic achievement" for religious freedom and a major step forward for inter-religious dialogue.
The apostolic nuncio to Kuwait, Qatar, Yemen, the United Arab Emirates, and Bahrain, Archbishop Paul-Mounged El-Hachem, is reportedly the lead Vatican negotiator in talks with Saudi officials. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| merkurix wrote: |
There is a teeny, tiny crack of hope:
http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=6247
| Quote: |
FIRST CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR SAUDI ARABIA
Negotiations are underway to build the first Catholic church in Saudi Arabia with King Abdullah lending his support for its construction.
Vatican Radio reports the Vatican and the Saudi government are currently in talks to allow the church despite the kingdoms ban on allowing the construction of any non-Muslim place of worship.
No religion other than Islam is allowed to schedule public services, and even the possession of bibles, rosaries, and crucifixes is forbidden.
Saudi Arabia is the only country on the Arabian Peninsula without a Catholic church despite the 800,000 Catholics - virtually all of who are foreign workers.
While Saudi Arabia does not have formal diplomatic relations with the Holy See, King Abdullah became the first reigning Saudi monarch ever to visit the Vatican last November.
Commenting after his meeting with the Pope Vatican officials confirmed the Pontiff pressed for permission to open a Catholic church in the kingdom.
Holy See spokesman Fr Federico Lombardi said that opening a Catholic parish in the Islamic land would be "a historic achievement" for religious freedom and a major step forward for inter-religious dialogue.
The apostolic nuncio to Kuwait, Qatar, Yemen, the United Arab Emirates, and Bahrain, Archbishop Paul-Mounged El-Hachem, is reportedly the lead Vatican negotiator in talks with Saudi officials. |
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No. Even in the most fundamentalist positions in islam it is permissible for other religions to exist. They must pay the jizya, live in submission to their muslim overlords and many other rules. It is totally within a total sharia system for a church to exist. They just don't last long because dhimmnitude is such an effective system of converting or driving out non-muslims.
No hope, only fire. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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The Jizzya concept came from the Romans. It is basically tribute and the Muslims copied the Romans in that sense which is understandable considering the time. Of course, I am against the idea of jizzya and an Islamic state in the traditional sense, because it doesn't allow people freedom of and from religion. If Saudi Arabia starts making small steps away from Wahhabism, then I welcome that. Saudi Arabia has also actively fought Al Qaeda. If it allows a Catholic church to be built that would be grand for the Phillipino, European, and Arab Catholics who live there who have nowhere to really worship which is unjust. The Saudi monarchs wouldn't even have said what the king said 10 years ago.
Saudi Arabia is a far cry from a tolerant place, but everyone should welcome some positive changes if they occur. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
The Saudi monarchs wouldn't even have said what the king said 10 years ago.
Saudi Arabia is a far cry from a tolerant place, but everyone should welcome some positive changes if they occur. |
The article you posted was little more than fodder for the naive left in the West.
Jizzya is tribute with a religious bent. Who cares who invented it? The Roman civilization doesn't even exist anymore. Not inventing something doesn't excuse use of it in even the most minute way. There is simply no point in even mentioning it.
Frankly, I don't care what happens in Saudi. I don't care what they do to each other. At this point, it is just part of the absurd global clown carnival of inferior ideas/cultures/behaviours that entertain me in moments of nihilism. I do care about Western people apologizing for muslim madness under the guise of nuance or tolerance. Call a spade a spade. It feels good. Just try it. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The Jizzya concept came from the Romans. It is basically tribute and the Muslims copied the Romans in that sense which is understandable considering the time. |
Nonsense. The idea that 'people of the book' who do not accept Islam must 'feel subdued' and pay the jizza comes directly from the Koran. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The Jizzya concept came from the Romans. It is basically tribute and the Muslims copied the Romans in that sense which is understandable considering the time. |
Nonsense. The idea that 'people of the book' who do not accept Islam must 'feel subdued' and pay the jizza comes directly from the Koran. |
It is not nonsense. The Roman Empire existed before Islam, so the idea of collecting tribute according to some historians relates to having precedents just as Islam was influenced by Judaism and Christianity and Syriac stories (of course, some Muslims might be offended by that), but that is what many historians speculate. The idea of having conquered people was an ancient concept predating Islam. The Jews didn't take tribute. They just destroyed their enemies. The Romans did.
Also, it is said that some Islamic pronunciation is influenced by Greek.
For example, one of the words for the devil is Iblees, and in Greek it is
Diabolis. Muslims call Jesus Issa and Greeks call him Issos.
Again, if Saudi Arabia allows for a church to be built in the country, that is good news. I will take the good news. Anyway, the jizzya is not used in any country in the world today. When it was last used, the French Catholics were often less tolerant of their minorities. You can't look at history and isolate things the way you fellows are doing. I am not a supporter of theocracy, but I am all for historical accuracy. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| The Jizzya concept came from the Romans. It is basically tribute and the Muslims copied the Romans... |
That is correct. But it does not negate the fact that the jizzya is commanded by the Quran (Sura9:29).
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Anyway, the jizzya is not used in any country in the world today. When it was last used, the French Catholics were often less tolerant of their minorities. |
Jizzya, and a great deal of other sharia shenanigans were largely abolished by European colonialism. That's why you don't see much of it today. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Anyway, the jizzya is not used in any country in the world today. |
Oh jesus. It is used all over the world. Here is one example:
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Denmark: Church pays protection money to Muslims to prevent attacks on church-goers
With 300,000 inhabitants, Aarhus is the second largest city of in Denmark. In Gellerup, a multicultural suburb of Arhus, the multicultural problems can be seen openly. There are many Muslims and many Kalaallit (the natives of Greenland, which belongs to Denmark).
The Muslim citizens of Gellerup tyrannize the indigenous population of Greenland in the sourrounding areas of Arhus (as well as in Greenland) since the summer of 2007 so much that they no longer dare venture out of their homes. Muslims see the Kalaallit as second-class people who do not have rights. The Kalaallit in Gellerup - who must live in fear of their fellow citizens from a terrorist Islamic cultural background - don�t dare venture out without major security measures, they may not celebrate holidays and they can no longer play football together.
Muslims show themselves less multi-cultural, but rather blatantly racist - and attack the natives. Since last summer, the local government is trying to educate Muslims in Greenland and Gellerup on an official website in Arabic, by teaching them that they live next to the Aboriginal people of Greenland (link to the official site on which the citizens ask their Arabic fellow-citizens politely for more respect for Kalaallit .
Now the Muslim fellow citizens in the vicinity of Arhus attack not only the Kalaallit, but increasingly also Christians. For a long time the church didn�t know what to do, but now the church employs two Muslim fellow citizens as �bodyguards� to protect the church from vandalism and church-goers vehicles.
The church is delighted: Since the Muslims are paid for protecting Christians from fellow Muslims, by far not as many churchgoers cars were damaged, nor was the church vandalized or Christians attacked in the vicinity of the church (Source: Kristeligt Dagblad June 30, 2008 and Udfordringen). |
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merkurix
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: Not far from the deep end.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Sectarian conflict in Greenland of all places!!!! What's next?? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="mises"]
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Anyway, the jizzya is not used in any country in the world today. |
Oh jesus. It is used all over the world. Here is one example:
What you quoted is not jizzya. Those Muslims technically, could be killed by other Muslims for assaulting innocent Christians. I don't buy that.
The jizzya was abolished in most of the Islamic world about 100 years ago. European colonial regimes abolished them. The jizzya is imposed in an Islamic state. There is no such Islamic state that imposes a jizzya. Let's stick to the facts.
Actually, an Albanian leader named Mohammed Ali before the Europeans tried to make Christians and Muslims equal, but that didn't work, because the British undermined him and forced him to withdraw from Syria and the sectarian bloodbaths happened. He couldn't enforce the pluralism he wanted, and the British preferred the corrupt, oppressive Ottoman Empire, rather than a modern, industrial, more liberal regime under Mohammed Ali. They were afraid it would affect their economic interests and colonial interests as well, but as a poster said the jizzya hasn't been in practice for quite some time. Also, a few hundred years ago, the French were persecuting Protestants and massacred some. It is not like Europe was tolerant and their Muslim counterparts were always backward kind of deal.
I don't dispute the Islamic world is backwards, oppressive in many areas... No one is, I think. There is discrimination against Christians and others. Do you see Jordanian Christians paying a jizzya? No, they don't.
Do they get harassed by those of their ethnicity for being Christian?
No, they don't. They go to school together and hang out together and party together in many cases. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
What you quoted is not jizzya. |
I'd call that a textbook case of jizzya. |
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