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The case for not supporting Obama
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ytuque



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:26 pm    Post subject: The case for not supporting Obama Reply with quote

The Thin Man William Kristol
Mon Aug 25, 11:34 AM ET

This week, the least qualified man to receive a major party nomination for the presidency of the United States in modern times will be anointed by his party. He could well win the general election.

Republicans have held the presidency for the last eight years. On five occasions since the FDR-Truman administration, voters have had a chance to change parties after a two-term presidency. Four of those times (1960, 1968, 1976, 2000), they have done so. The fifth occasion was 1988, when Republicans held the White House after Reagan's two terms. But Reagan's approval rating was then close to 60 percent; George W. Bush's is around 30 percent.

What's more, the Democrats now lead the GOP by about 10 points on the generic ballot. Economic growth this election year will be minimal. And a majority of the public are more focused on the economy than foreign policy. In any case, a majority of the public still think the Iraq war was a mistake.

These are the underlying political conditions. As for the candidates, Barack Obama is the beau ideal of a modern contender--and John McCain is not. As for the campaigns, Obama's will outspend and out-organize McCain's. And all the powers of the old media, the old academy, and old Hollywood--all the forces of political correctness and establishment progressivism--have entered into an alliance to try to ensure an Obama victory.

Only two things stand in the way: John McCain and Barack Obama. John McCain is a man of wide experience, demonstrated courage, and strong character. Can one say the same of Barack Obama?

Here is Obama's r�sum�: an Ivy League law degree, a few years of community organizing, seven years in the Illinois senate, three and a half years as a U.S. senator. Kind of modest. What has he accomplished in any of those jobs? Not much, not much at all.

Has he shown great courage in his political career? Has he shunned the easy path or broken with the conventional liberal pieties of those around him? Has he taken on his own party on a major issue? Nope.

Has he shown exemplary character? He has undoubted skills and abilities. He has always had great potential. But has he followed through on it? Is there a moment in his public life that one looks to and says: Agree or disagree, that was impressive?

His defining moment so far was his keynote speech at the 2004 Democratic convention. If one rereads that speech today, one sees more clearly the emptiness beneath the eloquence, the lack of substance behind the sizzle. But one paragraph does stand out:

Our party has chosen a man to lead us who embodies the best this country has to offer. That man is John Kerry. John Kerry understands the ideals of community, faith, and sacrifice, because they've defined his life. From his heroic service in Vietnam to his years as prosecutor and lieutenant governor, through two decades in the United States Senate, he has devoted himself to this country. Again and again, we've seen him make tough choices when easier ones were available. His values and his record affirm what is best in us.

Leave aside whether John Kerry deserved Obama's encomia. Doesn't Obama's praise of Kerry highlight how thin Obama's own claim to leadership is? After all, Obama has done none of the things for which he praises Kerry. Is he ready to be president of the United States? I think a majority of American voters will conclude not.

What's more, they'll realize that the Democratic party will control Congress for the next two years. There's no chance (unfortunately) that a conservative domestic agenda will be much advanced, no matter who's president. So moderates and independents wary of Republican governance or conservative enthusiasms will have little to fear from a McCain presidency. They may conclude they have quite a bit to fear from the team of Obama-Pelosi-Reid governing unchecked.

And we're at war. We're electing a commander in chief. It's not so much that Obama would, like the Democrats of his youth, blame America first. It's that he would wish away the dangers to America--and react too little and too late to threats to ourselves and our allies.

Obama said in 2004, "We coach Little League in the blue states and, yes, we've got some gay friends in the red states." I suspect Barack Obama would be a great Little League coach--sensible but also inspiring, balanced and empathetic, able to deal with both crazed parents and immature kids. And I suspect that, on November 4, the American people will decide to allow Barack Obama plenty of time to coach Little League in the next four years by keeping him in the Senate, and entrusting the presidency to a major leaguer, John McCain.

--William Kristol
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let�s take a look at what one of the leading conservatives has to say about the nominee of the opposing party:

�the least qualified man to receive a major party nomination for the presidency of the United States in modern times�

A fair criticism, depending on how you define �least qualified�. I also would prefer a more experienced person at the head of the ticket, but the voters chose otherwise. I probably would have thought the same when the GOP nominated John C. Fremont in 1856 and Abraham Lincoln in 1860. I would also have hoped for more qualifications from Warren G. Harding in 1920. To bring it into more modern times, I would have liked to see someone with more qualifications than George Bush in 2000. His only real experience was as a 2nd term governor of Texas. Didn�t he say he�d never been to Europe?

More experience in the Executive Branch would be good. It�s no guarantee of success, but it would reduce some of the �crap shoot� quality of elections. I�m thinking of Herbert Hoover, an enormously famous and popular man who had organized emergency relief for Belgium during World War I and a good deal of Europe after the War. Extensive experience in the worst of circumstances. Then he served as Secretary of Treasury under Harding/Coolidge. That�s pretty good experience, too. Unfortunately, Hoover was a disaster as a president. Grant was also reasonably experienced if you consider 4 years at the head of some fairly big armies as executive experience. I would. He was also a disaster.

Consider McCain�s experience. It is entirely in the Senate, focused on military affairs. Legislative experience in a secondary field. While it�s more than Obama�s, it isn�t really the best experience for the presidency.

For every experienced governor who was a successful president, I can think of one who wasn�t successful. So while I agree that experience is better than not experienced, there are other factors equally important to consider.

�a man of wide experience, demonstrated courage, and strong character. Can one say the same of Barack Obama?�

I think you can.
There are two kinds of courage, physical and moral. It takes physical courage to stand in front of crowds and speak when you know there are millions of guns floating around and one of them could very well be aimed at you. All presidents deal with that. Both candidates pass muster on that count as far as I can see. What about moral courage? McCain has defied his party. That counts as moral courage. Obama, a black man, is running for president of a white-majority country. That takes moral courage. I�d say both men have demonstrated courage.

I tend to mix moral courage with strong character. As far as I know, both are men of integrity. McCain has that one financial scandal in his past but he was never convicted (or even charged as far as I know); as far as I know, there is no scandal in Obama�s past. One thing in Obama�s favor is the �Ivy League law degree� Kristol mentions. He did not come from a privileged past. He earned his way in and out. I think that shows strong character. From what I can tell, both he and Michelle worked in law and made a comfortable nest egg then dedicated themselves to public works, a lot like Benjamin Franklin did. I�d say both McCain and Obama pass on the strong character criteria. I do have to wonder if mentioning Obama�s law degree as �Ivy League� is meant as a subtle reminder to those who resent the �Eastern Liberal establishment�.

It�s interesting that Kristol regards Obama�s �stand-out paragraph� as the one praising Kerry. I doubt very much that that is the paragraph other people remember. I suspect the memorable part of the speech was his Red State/Blue State paragraph where he said we are all Americans. Back to Kerry for a moment�he was a poor candidate but a good man.

Then we�re back to the politics of fear (if the �unqualified candidate� part didn�t succeed). With a divided government we don�t have to fear the conservative agenda but you �have quite a bit to fear from the team of Obama-Pelosi-Reid governing unchecked�. I don�t recall Kristol reassuring people about a Bush/Republican Congress.

At no point does Kristol address the issue of McCain continuing the policies of Bush. This part should have been in the list with experience, courage and character. At least in my opinion, policies are a vital part of the mix. Where does a president want to take us? What ideals does he have that will shape his decisions on the issues of the day? This was not included because this is the one point where Obama wins hands down. Four more years of military adventures and running the debt as high as you can get it?

So on the 4 factors:
McCain gets a slightly higher score than Obama on EXPERIENCE
They are tied on COURAGE and CHARACTER.
Obama wins by a mile on projected POLICIES.

It wasn't within the aims of this article, but it would be interesting to see Kristol's essay on why people should vote for McCain. It would certainly have to be a weak endorsement. Wasn't Kristol one of the conservatives who were saying they'd vote for Hillary Clinton over McCain last spring?
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, good ol' Oftenwrong Kristol.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=148350&title=fred-thompson-drops-out

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=153112

Quote:
On September 11, 2002, as the Bush administration began its sales campaign for the coming war, Kristol suggested that Saddam Hussein could do more harm to the United States than al Qaeda had: "we cannot afford to let Saddam Hussein inflict a worse 9/11 on us in the future."

On September 15, 2002, he claimed that inspection and containment could not work with Saddam: "No one believes the inspections can work." Actually, UN inspectors believed they could work. So, too, did about half of congressional Democrats. They were right.

On September 18, 2002, Kristol opined that a war in Iraq "could have terrifically good effects throughout the Middle East."

On September 19, 2002, he once again pooh-poohed inspections: "We should not fool ourselves by believing that inspections could make any difference at all." During a debate with me on Fox News Channel, after I noted that the goal of inspections was to prevent Saddam from reaching "the finish line" in developing nuclear weapons, Kristol exclaimed, "He's past that finish line. He's past the finish line."

On November 21, 2002, he maintained, "we can remove Saddam because that could start a chain reaction in the Arab world that would be very healthy."

On February 2, 2003, he claimed that Secretary of State Colin Powell at an upcoming UN speech would "show that there are loaded guns throughout Iraq" regarding weapons of mass destruction. As it turned out, everything in Powell's speech was wrong. Kristol was uncritically echoing misleading information handed him by friends and allies within the Bush administration.

On February 20, 2003, he summed up the argument for war against Saddam: "He's got weapons of mass destruction. At some point he will use them or give them to a terrorist group to use...Look, if we free the people of Iraq we will be respected in the Arab world....France and Germany don't have the courage to face up to the situation. That's too bad. Most of Europe is with us. And I think we will be respected around the world for helping the people of Iraq to be liberated."

On March 1, 2003, Kristol dismissed concerns that sectarian conflict might arise following a US invasion of Iraq: "We talk here about Shiites and Sunnis as if they've never lived together. Most Arab countries have Shiites and Sunnis, and a lot of them live perfectly well together." He also said, "Very few wars in American history were prepared better or more thoroughly than this one by this president." And he maintained that the war would be a bargain at $100 to $200 billion. The running tab is now nearing half a trillion dollars.

On March 5, 2003, Kristol said, "I think we'll be vindicated when we discover the weapons of mass destruction and when we liberate the people of Iraq."
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:56 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Quote:
"Very few wars in American history were prepared better or more thoroughly than this one by this president." And he maintained that the war would be a bargain at $100 to $200 billion. The running tab is now nearing half a trillion dollars.


Let me add a bit more to that:
Quote:
According to one estimate, initially as many as 75,000 troops may be required to police the war's aftermath, at a cost of $16 billion a year. As other countries' forces arrive, and as Iraq rebuilds its economy and political system, that force could probably be drawn down to several thousand soldiers after a year or two.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kristol
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
According to one estimate, initially as many as 75,000 troops may be required to police the war's aftermath, at a cost of $16 billion a year. As other countries' forces arrive, and as Iraq rebuilds its economy and political system, that force could probably be drawn down to several thousand soldiers after a year or two.


Oh ye of little faith...How do you know Kristol wasn't talking about 2108? Hmmh?
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ytuque



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So on the 4 factors:
McCain gets a slightly higher score than Obama on EXPERIENCE

McCain has slightly more experience than Obama?

They are tied on COURAGE and CHARACTER.

McCain's 5-1/2 years in a N. Vietnamese prison camp is comparable to anything Obama has been through?

Obama wins by a mile on projected POLICIES.

According to whom?
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ytuque



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mithridates wrote:
Ah, good ol' Oftenwrong Kristol.


You can attack Kristol's credibility but can you refute anything in his editorial?
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
McCain's 5-1/2 years in a N. Vietnamese prison camp is comparable to anything Obama has been through?

Obama wins by a mile on projected POLICIES.

According to whom?


Being a POW must be a horrendous experience but in no way prepares you for being president. Am I missing something? Military experience is a positive thing, but Bush didn't have any and Kerry did. For that matter, neither did Lincoln (although his didn't amount to anything). I'm not denigrating it, but unless it is at the highest levels, it has nothing to do with preparing someone for governing a country. The presidency is not some plum to be handed out simply for past military services.

According to whom? Well, obviously since I wrote that response, according to me. The choices are down to two. McCain says he wants to continue Bush's policies. I vote no on that. That leaves Obama. Fairly simple math it seems to me.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David Brooks has a nice piece on Obama:

At the core, Obama�s best message has always been this: He is unconnected with the tired old fights that constrict our politics. He is in tune with a new era. He has very little experience but a lot of potential. He does not have big achievements, but he is authentically the sort of person who emerges in a multicultural, globalized age. He is therefore naturally in step with the problems that will confront us in the years to come.

So as I�m trying to measure the effectiveness of this convention, I�ll be jotting down a little minus mark every time I hear a theme that muddies that image. I�ll jot down a minus every time I hear the old class conflict, and the old culture war themes. I�ll jot down a minus when I see the old Bush obsession rearing its head, which is not part of his natural persona. I�ll write a demerit every time I hear the rich played off against the poor, undercutting Obama�s One America dream.

I�ll put a plus down every time a speaker says that McCain is a good man who happens to be out of step with the times. I�ll put a plus down every time a speaker says that a multipolar world demands a softer international touch. I�ll put a plus down when a speaker says the old free market policies worked fine in the 20th century, but no longer seem to be working today. These are arguments that reinforce Obama�s identity as a 21st-century man.

The rest of it is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/opinion/26brooks.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ytuque wrote:
mithridates wrote:
Ah, good ol' Oftenwrong Kristol.


You can attack Kristol's credibility but can you refute anything in his editorial?


Sure. How many refutations do you want? Here's one:

Quote:
And all the powers of the old media, the old academy, and old Hollywood--all the forces of political correctness and establishment progressivism--have entered into an alliance to try to ensure an Obama victory.


http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-onthemedia27-2008jul27,0,712999.story

Quote:
The Center for Media and Public Affairs at George Mason University, where researchers have tracked network news content for two decades, found that ABC, NBC and CBS were tougher on Obama than on Republican John McCain during the first six weeks of the general-election campaign.

You read it right: tougher on the Democrat.

During the evening news, the majority of statements from reporters and anchors on all three networks are neutral, the center found. And when network news people ventured opinions in recent weeks, 28% of the statements were positive for Obama and 72% negative.

Network reporting also tilted against McCain, but far less dramatically, with 43% of the statements positive and 57% negative, according to the Washington-based media center.



Wrong again!
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ytuque



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mithridates wrote:
ytuque wrote:
mithridates wrote:
Ah, good ol' Oftenwrong Kristol.


You can attack Kristol's credibility but can you refute anything in his editorial?


Sure. How many refutations do you want? Here's one:

Quote:
And all the powers of the old media, the old academy, and old Hollywood--all the forces of political correctness and establishment progressivism--have entered into an alliance to try to ensure an Obama victory.


http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-onthemedia27-2008jul27,0,712999.story

Wrong again!


Wrong again? If you read the LA Times' article, it only cites a 6 week period. I don't think this proves your point.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:07 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Quote:
You can attack Kristol's credibility but can you refute anything in his editorial?


First of all, it's an editorial. We're dealing with opinions. I guess you skipped over the rather extensive bit Yata posted if you don't see any refutations here.

But, OK, let me do my part. Wait! I feel something in my backside. Let me pull it out. Voila:

Quote:
It's that he would wish away the dangers to America--and react too little and too late to threats to ourselves and our allies.


Hmm..., wasn't the great concern that he implied he'd attack Pakistan too prematurely?

Secondly, other than peering into the crystal (Kristol?Razz ) ball at the Weekly Standard, how does he know what and when Obama's response to threats would be? Oh, he doesn't and he's just talking out of his bumhole.

Finally, if this is the best a Republican attack dog can muster, then Hillary was more formidable.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ytuque wrote:
mithridates wrote:
ytuque wrote:
mithridates wrote:
Ah, good ol' Oftenwrong Kristol.


You can attack Kristol's credibility but can you refute anything in his editorial?


Sure. How many refutations do you want? Here's one:

Quote:
And all the powers of the old media, the old academy, and old Hollywood--all the forces of political correctness and establishment progressivism--have entered into an alliance to try to ensure an Obama victory.


http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-onthemedia27-2008jul27,0,712999.story

Wrong again!


Wrong again? If you read the LA Times' article, it only cites a 6 week period. I don't think this proves your point.


He's the one making a bold statement here, so the burden of proof is on him:

Quote:
And all the powers of the old media, the old academy, and old Hollywood--all the forces of political correctness and establishment progressivism--have entered into an alliance to try to ensure an Obama victory.


Where is this alliance?

See, the thing about Bill Kristol is he's really good at hyperbole that ends up coming back to bite him. Why not just try to get away with a vague statement along the lines of "the media seems to really want to see an Obama victory" instead of this claim of an alliance of ALL the powers of the old media, while he himself writes for the New York Times? This is why Bill Kristol is better ignored. Too much hyperbole, too many non-sequiturs, and he's far too often wrong for his own good. He's not even smarter than the average CE poster on Dave's.
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ytuque



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://journalism.org/node/12009
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://journalism.org/node/4846
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