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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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 Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: Sweden bans religion in schools. |
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Well the teaching of religion as fact,
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The Swedish government has announced plans to clamp down hard on religious education. It will soon become illegal even for private faith schools to teach religious doctrines as if they were true. In an interesting twist on the American experience, prayer will remain legal in schools - after all, it has no truth value. But everything that takes place on the curriculum's time will have to be secular. "Pupils must be protected from every sort of fundamentalism," said the minister for schools, Jan Bj�rklund.
Creationism and ID are explicitly banned but so is proselytising even in religious education classes. The Qur'an may not be taught as if it is true even in Muslim independent schools, nor may the Bible in Christian schools. |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/18/godshonesttruth |
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it's full of stars
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| I like this. Can't wait until a teacher: Christian, Jew or Muslim, gets pulled out of school in handcuffs for teaching the word of God. |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| it's full of stars wrote: |
| I like this. Can't wait until a teacher: Christian, Jew or Muslim, gets pulled out of school in handcuffs for teaching the word of God. |
Which God were you refering to?
I think this is a great idea, at least in theory, if not practice.
Schools are not for religious education. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| It makes more sense than the US on both counts: religion shouldn't be involved in classes where it's not the subject, but there shouldn't be a ban on prayer either. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| It makes more sense than the US on both counts: religion shouldn't be involved in classes where it's not the subject, but there shouldn't be a ban on prayer either. |
Religion isn't involved in classes in public schools in the US, mith. I would have expected a better understanding of our country from you.
There is no ban on prayer in US public schools either, but there is a ban on government imposed prayer. That's a big difference.
School prayer
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| In the US, prayer in public schools is legal and one cannot go to jail for praying at school |
In other words, Sweden has joined the US in regulation of government-sponsored religious practices that yet allows the liberty of individuals to pray in public schools. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
In other words, Sweden has joined the US in regulation of government-sponsored religious practices that yet allows the liberty of individuals to pray in public schools. |
I think Sweden is going a little further by essentially prohibiting creationism and proselytizing. Something that definitely happens in the UK and especially at faith based schools. I don't have any first hand experience of the US education system, but Dover showed the rest of the world the problem of religion in schools. I can't really see how Sweden will get this to work in faith schools where all students and teachers are of the one faith. Who's going to tell? Though many faith schools in the UK take students not of that school's faith. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| It makes more sense than the US on both counts: religion shouldn't be involved in classes where it's not the subject, but there shouldn't be a ban on prayer either. |
Religion isn't involved in classes in public schools in the US, mith. I would have expected a better understanding of our country from you. |
Why? I've never even been to the States (I want to go though next time I'm back in North America, and first to Boise, Idaho). I pay attention to politics but you'll notice huge gaps in common knowledge that your average US citizen will have. Luckily you're here though to set me straight. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
In other words, Sweden has joined the US in regulation of government-sponsored religious practices that yet allows the liberty of individuals to pray in public schools. |
I think Sweden is going a little further by essentially prohibiting creationism and proselytizing. Something that definitely happens in the UK and especially at faith based schools. I don't have any first hand experience of the US education system, but Dover showed the rest of the world the problem of religion in schools. I can't really see how Sweden will get this to work in faith schools where all students and teachers are of the one faith. Who's going to tell? Though many faith schools in the UK take students not of that school's faith. |
I think your first sentence is accurate, with the caveat that the US has never had the chance to rule on creationism and proselytizing. The US Supreme Court has never had to decide the issue because it hasn't come up. Most of the creationism controversy has been confined to the internets and Kansas. Kansas is one state among 50, and only the 32nd most populous state, with only 2.6 million people, which less than 1% of the population of the entire US (300,000,000).
For an evolution of creationism, see this William Saletan piece. Note that I oppose even this teaching of ID in schools, because I believe that teaching anything other than evolution is the role of private, not public organizations. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| The article does claim that Sweden would include private faith schools in its ruling. It would seem if you hold strong religious beliefs you're going to have to home school. |
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SirFink
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| it's full of stars wrote: |
| I like this. Can't wait until a teacher: Christian, Jew or Muslim, gets pulled out of school in handcuffs for teaching the word of God. |
But it's not the word of God. It's false. Teachers who teach falsehoods to kids should be fired, should they not? |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I think your first sentence is accurate, with the caveat that the US has never had the chance to rule on creationism and proselytizing. The US Supreme Court has never had to decide the issue because it hasn't come up. Most of the creationism controversy has been confined to the internets and Kansas. Kansas is one state among 50, and only the 32nd most populous state, with only 2.6 million people, which less than 1% of the population of the entire US (300,000,000). |
Kuros you blow my mind with the audacity of ignorance perpetuated through your obvious lack of ability to do research, read an actual court opinion - perhaps you don't even realize what the U.S. Supreme Court is? are you even familiar with judicial opinions? legal briefs? what people do when they sue ??
it's mind-boggling, truly mind-boggling the kinds of nonsense some of you actually dare to try and dispense on these forums.
it took me about 30 seconds to google up this site which provides various Supreme Court decisions:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/decisions.html
here's just one (summary) that is clearly NOT in Kansas:
Epperson v. Arkansas, 89 S. Ct. 266 (1968)
State statute banning teaching of evolution is unconstitutional. A state cannot alter any element in a course of study in order to promote a religious point of view. A state's attempt to hide behind a nonreligious motivation will not be given credence unless that state can show a secular reason as the foundation for its actions.
I realize there is an infinitely long thread devoted to evolution and I'm not interestd in re-visiting this subject right now - only let it suffice to say that yes, the teaching of evolution is a BIG deal in public schools ACROSS THE COUNTRY - not just in Kansas.
and before you go on and start caling me abusive names which you and your cronies love to do - let it also be known that whether or not you care to acknowledge that I'm right - and I know I am - whether or not you agree doesn't change anything - right is right and wrong is wrong - and dude - you are SO wrong here you'd have to do a 360 just to look at a map!! |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I think you meant he'd have to do a 180. Turning 360 degrees brings him back to facing the same direction he was before turning. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
I think your first sentence is accurate, with the caveat that the US has never had the chance to rule on creationism and proselytizing. The US Supreme Court has never had to decide the issue because it hasn't come up. Most of the creationism controversy has been confined to the internets and Kansas. Kansas is one state among 50, and only the 32nd most populous state, with only 2.6 million people, which less than 1% of the population of the entire US (300,000,000). |
here's just one (summary) that is clearly NOT in Kansas:
Epperson v. Arkansas, 89 S. Ct. 266 (1968)
State statute banning teaching of evolution is unconstitutional. A state cannot alter any element in a course of study in order to promote a religious point of view. A state's attempt to hide behind a nonreligious motivation will not be given credence unless that state can show a secular reason as the foundation for its actions.
I realize there is an infinitely long thread devoted to evolution and I'm not interestd in re-visiting this subject right now - only let it suffice to say that yes, the teaching of evolution is a BIG deal in public schools ACROSS THE COUNTRY - not just in Kansas. |
Did you read the date on your opinion? That's from 40 years ago.
Notwithstanding, its relevant and I stand corrected.
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| Kuros you blow my mind with the audacity of ignorance perpetuated through your obvious lack of ability to do research, read an actual court opinion - perhaps you don't even realize what the U.S. Supreme Court is? are you even familiar with judicial opinions? legal briefs? what people do when they sue ?? |
It may surprise you to hear that, yes, in fact, I am familiar with such things.
| Moosehead wrote: |
| and before you go on and start caling me abusive names which you and your cronies love to do |
Well, actually, your case demonstrates that a state statute cannot ban evolution. The issue I was looking for was whether a state could teach Intellectual Design. Now I think your correction is completely helpful and relevant, but I think your dislike of me has taken hold.
Go back and look at it. There's a difference between allowing a state to teach Intellectual Design and a state banning evolution. I do understand that the ruling says the test for whether a state can teach ID is if there is a non-religious motivation, but as you'll see from the William Saletan article I linked to, that's exactly the kind of standard ID supporters are trying to meet. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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NY Times article on FL classrooms and evolution
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| In 2000, when the independent Thomas B. Fordham Foundation evaluated the evolution education standards of all 50 states, Florida was among 12 to receive a grade of F. (Kansas, which drew international attention in 1999 for deleting all mention of evolution and later embracing supernatural theories, received an F-minus.) |
There is also an interesting graph showing how much each state teaches evolution. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| OneWayTraffic wrote: |
| it's full of stars wrote: |
| I like this. Can't wait until a teacher: Christian, Jew or Muslim, gets pulled out of school in handcuffs for teaching the word of God. |
Which God were you refering to?
I think this is a great idea, at least in theory, if not practice.
Schools are not for religious education. |
Not even religious ones? What do you think evolution is? I takes more faith to believe you came from monkeys than it does from God.
What next?? Throw them in jail if they don't abide by their laws? |
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