| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
 Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: Warmongering atheist drunks for Obama |
 |
|
| Quote: |
Pakistan Is the Problem
And Barack Obama seems to be the only candidate willing to face it.
|
| Quote: |
Recent accounts of murderous violence in the capital cities of two of our allies, India and Afghanistan, make it appear overwhelmingly probable that the bombs were not the work of local or homegrown "insurgents" but were orchestrated by agents of the Pakistani ISI. This is a fantastically unacceptable state of affairs, which needs to be given its right name of state-sponsored terrorism. Meanwhile, and on Pakistani soil and under the very noses of its army and the ISI, the city of Quetta and the so-called Federally Administered Tribal Areas are becoming the incubating ground of a reorganized and protected al-Qaida. Sen. Barack Obama has, if anything, been the more militant of the two presidential candidates in stressing the danger here and the need to act without too much sentiment about our so-called Islamabad ally. He began using this rhetoric when it was much simpler to counterpose the "good" war in Afghanistan with the "bad" one in Iraq. Never mind that now; he is committed in advance to a serious projection of American power into the heartland of our deadliest enemy. And that, I think, is another reason why so many people are reluctant to employ truthful descriptions for the emerging Afghan-Pakistan confrontation: American liberals can't quite face the fact that if their man does win in November, and if he has meant a single serious word he's ever said, it means more war, and more bitter and protracted war at that�not less.
|
http://tinyurl.com/6xfvl8 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| American liberals can't quite face the fact that if their man does win in November, and if he has meant a single serious word he's ever said |
Hmm. I'm pretty sure Obama has debated on other platforms besides Iran. I'd even guess some of those words WERE serious. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hey, no need to go to war. Just stop importing Pakistanis. Discriminate. India is a big country and can deal with her own problems. I'm quite sure Afghanistan will remain a basket case despite our best efforts. Let Pakistan have it. We don't have to solve every problem every country has. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| We don't have to solve every problem every country has. |
Well, no. But this is Hitchens, right? The guy's still pretty hepped up on messianic interventionism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
American liberals can't quite face the fact that if their man does win in November, and if he has meant a single serious word he's ever said, it means more war, and more bitter and protracted war at that�not less.
|
If Pakistan does indeed warrant the label 'enemy', I doubt the more belligerent McCain will turn a blind eye to it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| We need to somehow convince Pakistan to letus enter the tribal areas so we can capture or kill the Senior Al Qaeda leadership. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
American liberals can't quite face the fact that if their man does win in November, and if he has meant a single serious word he's ever said, it means more war, and more bitter and protracted war at that�not less.
|
If Pakistan does indeed warrant the label 'enemy', I doubt the more belligerent McCain will turn a blind eye to it. |
I think maybe the point is not so much that Obama is the only candidate who will intervene in Pakistan. Rather, Hitchens is probably just having a bit of fun with liberals who lambaste guys like him as warmongers. Becuase those same liberals then turn around and support a candidate who openly promises to bring the war to other countries.
Last edited by On the other hand on Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| NAVFC wrote: |
| We need to somehow convince Pakistan to letus enter the tribal areas so we can capture or kill the Senior Al Qaeda leadership. |
Good luck with that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| Hey, no need to go to war. Just stop importing Pakistanis. Discriminate. India is a big country and can deal with her own problems. I'm quite sure Afghanistan will remain a basket case despite our best efforts. Let Pakistan have it. We don't have to solve every problem every country has. |
Okay. Well in the meantime for some of us allowing nations to go to Islamism has negative effects.
I for one support the Afghanistan conflict, if not all of the current tactics being used there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| You can't stop them. That is their path. Let them build their proud and noble muslim society which will fail on every level and create the internal movements and ideas for modernity. You can't have a bunch of (mostly white) dudes from Canada, Holland and the US running around with guns bringing democracy to the most backwards area of the most backwards civilization on earth. It will fail. It will forever fail. We are stunting their development to something resembling decency by associating decency with force, air strikes and occupation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| not so much that Obama is the only candidate who will intervene in Pakistan |
I know. Hence 'the more belligerent McCain'. At the risk of inciting Joo's wrath, I do have to say that I wonder just how serious Obama was about going in to Pakistan.
I'm hoping the Congress develops the cojones to stand up to whoever the next president is and say when he suggests invading another country: "OK. But first lets talk about a War Tax to pay as we go. And you have to tell the country about it on live national TV in front of a live audience of citizens armed with their guns, per the Second Amendment." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| You can't stop them. That is their path. Let them build their proud and noble muslim society which will fail on every level and create the internal movements and ideas for modernity. You can't have a bunch of (mostly white) dudes from Canada, Holland and the US running around with guns bringing democracy to the most backwards area of the most backwards civilization on earth. It will fail. It will forever fail. We are stunting their development to something resembling decency by associating decency with force, air strikes and occupation. |
You're setting the bar too high for the objectives of the mission. I have confidence in the troops that are there. Seriously.
Our special forces and intelligence agents need to get to know the ground and we need agents in Pakistan. Hitchens is right that we don't speak of the Afghan-Pakistan war. That's because its our policy to try to stabilize Pakistan.
They have nukes, remember? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I could not disagree more. We have no business there. Kill the people who killed our people and leave.
But you're in the majority on this one. It seems most Americans and Canadians believe strongly in the 'mission'. But I wonder, when is the mission over? When can I expect this war to end? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Five years ago we should have rounded up about 50,000 teenagers, flown them to homes/schools in the US, educated them, exposed them to Western grocery stores and shopping malls and trained them at military bases. Then about now, when they are 20, fly them home again. Armed to the teeth.
We could bring all our troops home and never have to worry about the place again. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If we increase our already-existing, low-level activities in Pakistan to something more, if we openly treat Pakistan as an enemy, this thing will rapidly escalate and expand in multiple directions, like stepping into a whirlwind -- and no one can predict where, when, and how it will end. I am not thinking Iran but rather primarily India, China, and possibly Russia. I would wager that many moderate allies would fall to fundamentalist revolution as well, including Saudi Arabia and other allied Gulf states. These would all turn against us.
Where would we be then?
W. Bush's increasing activities there as well as B. Obama's earlier talk of unilateral acts of war into Pakistani territory, and this C. Hitchens article as well suggesting he still talks about it, which I think plausible given who is advising him, all strike me as crazy.
There are smarter ways to go about the problems Afghanistan and Pakistan pose than simply hurling fuel at the fire -- particularly where field commanders have advised that no amount of troops will solve this complex problem. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
