Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Trevor]

As most of us know (with greater and lesser degrees of tolerance) lying has a much different social significance in Korean culture than in western countries, largely derived from the very important notion of 'saving face'. In terms of a heirarchy of values, lying simply does not have the same pride-of-place as it does in most western cultures, and nowhere near the moral significance. 'Saving face' within the group takes precedence over many other moral concerns that westerners organize in a much different manner, both psychologically as well as socially.

Unfortunately, the cultural differences regarding lying are often the first thing non-koreans notice when they come to Korea for the first time. People that have been here awhile become more accustomed to it; tend to anticipate it; develop defense mechanisms to alleviate the effects, and generally live with it because working here can be rewarding despite the much publicized drawbacks. (Some foreigners are more successful than others at overcoming the emotional discomfort of being lied to more often than they are used to).There are work-arounds to the lies we are often bombarded with. For instance, one common device foreigners often speak of in this forum is to put pressure on the culprit. Koreans are not known for being thick-skinned or strong-willed, and quite frequently dishonest behavior can be successfully countered by showing a steady but firm resolve that you will not tolerate such behavior. Countless posters on this forum have relayed anecdotes which show time and again that dishonesty can be overcome with this kind of calm but firm resolve. (Overwhelmingly, posters here have reported that their success rate goes up exponentially if they enable the liar to correct themselves without 'losing face'-- again, a value that has a much higher pride-of-place over honesty in Korea).

I have also had my share of experiences with dishonesty from all corners of Korean society. Are they lying to me because I am a foreigner? When I first arrived I thought so, and I am still certain that it is often a factor, though I am quite sure that Koreans lie to each other quite often as well (and perhaps even more). Many Koreans, particularly older ones, consider foreigners as 'non-persons' -- not necessarily in the pejorative sense, but because Korean culture is among the most insular in the world, they simply don't have the psycho-social apparatus to interact with foreigners on any meaningful level -- even if they do have the languge skills. That's changing rapidly, of course, and there are huge differences between different age groups in Korea in terms of their ability to interact with foreigners.

But the honesty thing...I am not sure that has changed much between generations and it is really, really troubling to me. The fact remains that Korea has an international reputation for being absurdly dishonest. It is perhaps the one trait attributed to Koreans over any other in terms of international reputation. It is a reputation that I personally think they have earned. One can easily point to the Korean geneticist who famously falsified his data on DNA research (I forget his name) as being to blame, but the problem is much deeper, older, wider and more systemic than one man could possibly be responsible for.

For instance, my students and the issue of plagiarism. My students fully understand:

A) What plagiarism is
B) I don't want them to do it
C) If I catch them, they will receive a zero

But, in terms of understanding the underlying reason why they should not plagiarize...well...I might as well be whistling in the wind.

As educators, one of our main responsibilities is to help Korea globalize its economy. I think most administrators in the public and private institutions we work for would wholeheartedly agree with the worthiness of this goal. However, I believe that the efficacy of Korea's efforts at globalization are cut roughly in half by not confronting the very serious issue of simple honesty in their business and personal dealings. It is ridiculous to deny the existance of this problem -- the vast majority of visitors to Korea report exactly the same phenomenon and have for years and years.

Perhaps the answer is to explain to Koreans on a national level exactly what more experienced expats have been doing on a personal level for years and years: calmly but firmly explain to them that their dishonesty is inappropriate and unacceptable. On a more positive note, remind them that being more trustworthy in the context of the global economy, as well as personally, would have enormous economic benefits as well. The trick is to figure out a way to do it and enable them to still 'save face'.

(EDIT) Here is an article I found on the issue of trust in Korea, written by a Korean academic at Chung Ang University. It addresses many of the social issues brought up in this thread having to do with the subject.


http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:43EWoeTf4cAJ:ebooks.iaccp.org/ongoing_themes/chapters/choi/choi.php%3Ffile%3Dchoi%26output%3Dscreen+korea+chemyon&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5

Here's a quote from the article:

Although strong in-group solidarity, personalized relationship and long-term commitment have been useful in maintaining family harmony, educational achievement, and economic growth, such a success has not transformed societal trust. In Korea, the level of trust is very low for public institutions, especially political institutions (Kim, Helgesen & Ahn, 2002). Less than 10% of Korean respondents trust the National Assembly and politicians. Similarly, a very low number of people trust public institutions, such as the educational and legal system. It is due to persistent corruption, nepotism, regionalism and factionalism that have become a major social problem in Korea (Kim, 1988, 2001b). The problem, however, is that East Asian societies have focused on harmonious family and have not placed enough interest and effort in promoting a harmonious society. Up until recently, East Asian societies were either colonized or ruled by kings or dictators. In modern East Asia, it is possible to develop a civil society that can promote societal harmony based on relational and long-term values, but it will take the involvement of all citizens to create a viable, effective, and trustworthy institutions.

[mee]

I think they are just more simple. I remember star students writing differential calculus formulas on their wrists and palms in high school and students buying term papers in college.

Cheating is everywhere, it's just ethically not conducive to real productiveness in the long run because you cheat yourself by not learning or growing.

That's what you should let them know.

[nuthatch]

OP ...are you Korean?

it's "lying"

if people want to learn English and the expansiveness of mind - rich language can bring, it is necessary to get BEYOND this whole saving face notion - just get over it - its closed mind

there is a big world out there

[Trevor]

Thanks.

Listen, I'm gonna need the spell check on the rest of the document right away. Hop to it, okay.

[Mix1]

"Saving face" seems to be a rather babyish concept in the first place. I know it serves a social function for Koreans, but why does the rest of the world have to coddle them so they can save face? We all like to save face to some degree, but to be all consumed by it seems emotionally immature at best.

What is "saving face" anyway? Isn't it mostly just a hypersensitivity to ones outward public image and/or reputation? If someone is so worried about "saving face", how about not lying in the first place?

[PigeonFart]

Very true. They are a lying bunch of people. I've never been told so many in a supposed "professional" setting. It makes me very angry indeed.

[jajdude]

[Ethan Allen Hawley]

I sometimes like to think that the whole saving face concept goes beyond the supposedly guilty person's presumed shame or my expectation that they should feel bad in some way.

Of course they should. Lying is a quick way to break any sense of trust and, in Korean terms, kills any 'jeong' or good feeling in a relationship, and creates pretty quick bad 'kibun' with me. I agree that lying is the weaker way out of a situation and potentially makes things harder, not easier within a relationship. What's any relationship without trust? I'm sick of going to a store to be told, for example the phone shop, that they can't get my prepaid phone recharged right now. Or the 1330 Tourist Information Service workers who always say that it's the English speaker's day off so they're not in right now.

On the other hand, two points:

(i.) who here is so pure and innocent 100% of the time? Back home we call them 'little white lies'. (... Sure they start little, but habits can develop.)

(ii.) why do we have such a fixation with pointing out the other's faults? That really is a western mind-set - the whole TV legal-drama driven industry of exposing and then catching the baddie, and seeing them brought to justice - it serves to make us feel better about the supposedly guilt free lives we live ... (or lived before we arrived here) in our filthy rich, ostrich-head-in-the-sand pig-ignorant decadent western lives where we as 20% of the world's wealthiest population consume 80% of the resources, create 90% of the world's pollution and then pass laws to forbid other nations from gaining a fairer share of the action (ie. World Band, IMF etc.) ... while expecting everyone to speak 'our' language ... in 'their' country. Sometimes I think it's an honour that 'they' bother to talk with 'us' at all.

[Whistleblower]

Isn't the fault of Western corporate and financial greed driven by lies, or am I forgetting something? Look at the current financial crisis!!! All driven by a systematic belief that people will pay back what they owe but we lied.

[mee]

[Trevor]

Well, in Korea, the importance of saving face has more to do with the prevalence of the group identity over the individual identiy. To westerners, individualism is much more important than group identity. When you lose face in Korea, however, your whole family loses face. It's how a 'confucianist' society is woven together. From their perspective, it's much better to tell a little lie than to bring shame to their entire family by losing face. This is true (psychologically at least) even in small social transactions that have nothing to do with their family. It is a deeply engrained habit in most Koreans.

The group identity thing can be very frustrating. For instance, I sometimes teach large lecture classes with close to forty students. If I ask a general question of the class - even a question that almost everyone knows the answer to -- it will be met with stone silence no matter how many times I repeat the question. Why? Because I asked the group and not an individual. If I then take out my attendance roll and ask a particular student the same question, it will be answered promptly and courteously. If I express my displeasure to this phenomenon, repeated many times, I will face class-wide resentment. Why? Because I expected the students to act as individuals instead of members of a group.

In a western classroom of course, if an instructor asks a general question to the entire class and everyone knows the answer, more than likely five or six students will holler the answer back immediately. It can be very disconcerting for a new instructor.

It is the common way in Korea to always take the path of least resistance, which in this case means maintaining group identity and not responding to a simple question -- not because they don't know the answer but because no one else in the group is. They are certainly not going to diverge from the group becuase someone who is outside of their group (a foreigner) asks them to, even to answer a trivial question. In their minds, that's practically sacrilege. They just think that way.

I think it is important for westerners to understand Koreans' need for the preservation of their group identity. (For instance, instead of asking questions to the group, I now know I am better off to taking out my roll book and asking a particular person a direct question, as doing otherwise would be asking for individualism in a group-oriented society). However, I do not think Korea understands the rest of the worlds interpretation of dishonesty that often results from their blind adherence to the group. In Korea, dishonesty is often seen as something akin to a social lubricant; not at all problematic. Westerners view it as something more akin to evil -- paricularly in the conduct of business. I have met many Koreans who have been absolutely bewildered when I have expressed anger at being lied to. They just absolutely are not capable of understanding it, and again from an economic perspective I think that fact has a hugely negative impact on their economic prospects, because few people really trust Koreans wholeheartedly.

[Yu_Bum_suk]

Well, if nothing else Korea has really taught me that honesty is a very relative concept. I don't think that the whole 'lying to save face' thing is necessarily so bad, but when it really, really pisses me off is when it's used to protect the powerful against well deserved shame, often using the weaker or 'others' as scapegoats.

And in some respects Koreans are very honest. I'm sure that just about anyone who's been here as long as me has had a shopkeeper chase them down the street to give them the correct change. As someone on Dave's once said, 'There's no country in the world in which I'd feel safer leaving money lying around and no country in which I'm more hesitant to sign a contract'.

[IncognitoHFX]

East Asian countries (not only Korea) would be better off, socially and economically, if they just canned the notion of "saving face" altogether. I know that me saying that is completely ignorant and unreasonable, as it is extremely difficult to just cast out a fundamental part of a culture, but the notion of "saving face" seems to create more damage than it saves. Kids graduate from High School when they shouldn't; people get promoted when they shouldn't be; it's hard to guage who is qualified and who is not qualified, et cetera.

It also creates a refuge for lying, deceit and other things which many people believe are universally undesirable. Many people here seem to hide behind "face" too, or they use it to manipulate others. I've chastized students before whose behaviour was completely irreprehensible, only to have them cry and ask me why I was being so tough on them.

It's not something people can just get rid of, my point nearly being, if it disappeared one day I think the world would be a better place for it.

On the bright side though, I find Koreans to be so emotional and easy to "set off" that you can usually get the jive of what they're feeling/thinking anyway without having to damage their "face" by asking directly. I knew a hagwon boss who lied once and his lies were so obvious (he got really emotional and defensive when he lied) that you knew exactly what he was actually doing without him having to say anything.

[Trevor]

Well, street crime is nowhere near as big a problem as other places, although pickpockets and purse snatchers are concerns.

[Trevor]

In addition, admission departments in top schools of western countries are often very distrustful of Korean transcripts. They see a Korean student who has never gotten a grade less than A+, and when they accept them, they discover the student is functioning well below expectations because high grades here are so easily procured by less-than-forthright methods.

Again, it makes Korea very hard to do business with because there is so much information here that clearly has no basis in standards outside of the Korean group-mentality with its internal and closely-guarded set of rules that often have little to do with reality.