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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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seoulteacher
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Stephane Dion needs an ESL lesson |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=mv-5biChVrA
haha...the liberals suck!!! |
You are right: (it apears that) Mr. Dion needs some ESL lessons. BUT it would help to acknowledge that the interviewer`s questions included if statements and complex language usage (eg. tenses) that clearly confused Mr. Dion, who is an intelligent person.
Could we (and CTV, cheaply going for an easy laugh and profit, after - and in contradiction to - their having told Mr. Dion that the initial interview takes would not be used) not show a little bit of empathy for a person operating outside their native language?
Incidentally, I will not be voting for Mr. Dion or for his party on Oct 14. But I will respect him as a fellow human being, and I will not seek to make capital over another`s misstep, especially where that lack is in an area (language) where I, as an ESL teacher, have experience and could use that experience to help.
Come on folks, let`s stop making fun of our fellow man - it is undermining our ability to relate to each other in a healthy way, and it is undermining our ability to see our own failings.
We can disagree as we lift up one another (as opposed to making fun of the other), n�st ce pas? |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Stephane Dion needs an ESL lesson |
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| seoulteacher wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=mv-5biChVrA
haha...the liberals suck!!! |
You are right: (it apears that) Mr. Dion needs some ESL lessons. BUT it would help to acknowledge that the interviewer`s questions included if statements and complex language usage (eg. tenses) that clearly confused Mr. Dion, who is an intelligent person.
Could we (and CTV, cheaply going for an easy laugh and profit, after - and in contradiction to - their having told Mr. Dion that the initial interview takes would not be used) not show a little bit of empathy for a person operating outside their native language?
Incidentally, I will not be voting for Mr. Dion or for his party on Oct 14. But I will respect him as a fellow human being, and I will not seek to make capital over another`s misstep, especially where that lack is in an area (language) where I, as an ESL teacher, have experience and could use that experience to help.
Come on folks, let`s stop making fun of our fellow man - it is undermining our ability to relate to each other in a healthy way, and it is undermining our ability to see our own failings.
We can disagree as we lift up one another (as opposed to making fun of the other), n�st ce pas? |
Come on. If he is going to be the leader of Canada, he needs to be able to answer English questions. Especially since this was a simple question.
Sure, he is an intelligent guy, but who cares if he can't speak English. |
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thiophene
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| He speaks English well enough in my opinion. I think us Canadians are used to waiting for translations, it's not a biggie, there are bigger issues to solve. Way bigger. Also, I'll take an intelligent guy over a native English speaking PM anyday. A French Canadian is still a Canadian. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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I don't care for either politician's party but I'd take Dion's English over Harper's French (if you can call it that LOL!) any day.
Liberals win this one by far......fiveeagle's you better get back to comparing apples and oranges and coming up with signs the world is coming to and end.
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
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seoulteacher
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Stephane Dion needs an ESL lesson |
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You`re right 5eagles, he needs to be able to communicate in English (as non-Francophones need to in French).
I guess it was simply that I was uncomfortable with making fun of him. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| I don't care for either politician's party but I'd take Dion's English over Harper's French (if you can call it that LOL!) any day. |
This person says they're at about the same level:
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Il faut avouer que le bilinguisme des chefs des cinq principaux partis politiques varie �norm�ment d�un � l�autre. Et si le fran�ais de Jack Layton est de loin sup�rieur � celui d�Elizabeth May, il est permis de s��tonner des propos de Stephen Harper dont le fran�ais est relativement du m�me calibre que l�anglais de St�phane Dion.
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http://www.democraticspace.com/canada2008/2008/10/le-bilinguisme-canadien-deux-poids-deux-mesures-selon-duceppe/ |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
ddeubel wrote:
I don't care for either politician's party but I'd take Dion's English over Harper's French (if you can call it that LOL!) any day.
This person says they're at about the same level:
Quote:
Il faut avouer que le bilinguisme des chefs des cinq principaux partis politiques varie �norm�ment d�un � l�autre. Et si le fran�ais de Jack Layton est de loin sup�rieur � celui d�Elizabeth May, il est permis de s��tonner des propos de Stephen Harper dont le fran�ais est relativement du m�me calibre que l�anglais de St�phane Dion.
http://www.democraticspace.com/canada2008/2008/10/le-bilinguisme-canadien-deux-poids-deux-mesures-selon-duceppe/ |
D'apres moi, pas de toute! Quel canard!
Really? Have you listened to them both?
I"m fluent in both languages having grown up in Timiscaming - a bilingual part of Ontario. I'm also a language teacher and thus qualified to make the comparison and evaluation.
Harper ranks low intermediate level. Dion is low-mid advanced. Harper speaks French without any attention to "fluidity" and it is stalting and full of low level vocab. Dion - his vocab is very advanced and he "flows" when he speaks English. He doesn't appear to be translating and "thinking it through" before speaking.
Tant pis pour le pauvre Harper!
DD |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
ddeubel wrote:
I don't care for either politician's party but I'd take Dion's English over Harper's French (if you can call it that LOL!) any day.
This person says they're at about the same level:
Quote:
Il faut avouer que le bilinguisme des chefs des cinq principaux partis politiques varie �norm�ment d�un � l�autre. Et si le fran�ais de Jack Layton est de loin sup�rieur � celui d�Elizabeth May, il est permis de s��tonner des propos de Stephen Harper dont le fran�ais est relativement du m�me calibre que l�anglais de St�phane Dion.
http://www.democraticspace.com/canada2008/2008/10/le-bilinguisme-canadien-deux-poids-deux-mesures-selon-duceppe/ |
D'apres moi, pas de toute! Quel canard!
Really? Have you listened to them both?
I"m fluent in both languages having grown up in Timiscaming - a bilingual part of Ontario. I'm also a language teacher and thus qualified to make the comparison and evaluation.
Harper ranks low intermediate level. Dion is low-mid advanced. Harper speaks French without any attention to "fluidity" and it is stalting and full of low level vocab. Dion - his vocab is very advanced and he "flows" when he speaks English. He doesn't appear to be translating and "thinking it through" before speaking.
Tant pis pour le pauvre Harper!
DD |
Tant pis pour vous aussi, car il y a d�j� un sondage national d'opinion que dit que le francais de Harper est meilleur:
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[VANCOUVER � Mar. 15, 2007] � Selon un r�cent sondage de la firme Angus Reid
Strategies, la majorit� des francophones canadiens sont satisfaits de la capacit� de leur
premier ministre Stephen Harper � s�exprimer en fran�ais. Les opinions sur la qualit� de
l�anglais du chef du Parti Lib�ral, St�phane Dion, ne sont pas aussi reluisantes
Afin que chaque groupe linguistique puisse �valuer l�habilet� du politicien � s�exprimer
dans sa deuxi�me langue, les r�pondants ont pu visionner une courte vid�o d�un des
deux hommes politiques. Les francophones ont regard� un extrait de M. Harper parlant
en fran�ais avant de r�pondre au questionnaire en ligne, tandis qu�un extrait de M. Dion
s�exprimant en anglais a �t� pr�sent� aux anglophones.
Le sondage a conclu que 81% de la communaut� francophone �valuent le fran�ais de
leur premier ministre comme �tant �bon� ou �tr�s bon�, tandis que 18% estiment qu�il est
�m�diocre�, ou �tr�s m�diocre�, D�un autre c�t�, seulement 56% des anglophones
consid�rent que le niveau d�anglais de M. Dion est �bon�, 42% d�entre eux ont une
opinion n�gative � ce sujet.
C�est parmi les jeunes francophones que M. Harper re�oit les pires r�sultats: 35% des
francophones �g�s entre 18 et 34 ans consid�rent que le fran�ais du Premier Ministre
est �m�diocre�, ou �tr�s m�diocre�. L�anglais de M. Dion est bien per�u aupr�s des
femmes anglophones (64%), mais seulement 47% des hommes de ce groupe sont
dans l�affirmative.
Il est int�ressant de constater � quel point l�opinion des deux groupes linguistiques
diff�re sur l�habilet� de leur chef politique � s�exprimer dans leur langue maternelle.
Tandis que 73% des francophones croient qu�il est important que leur Premier Ministre
parle couramment leur langue maternelle, seulement 57% des anglophones sont
d�accord avec cette affirmation. |
Yes, I've listened to them both. The only one I found really grating in French was Elizabeth May. Not that I'm better than any of them. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to say, but french really isn't that important. Other than going to Montreal to enjoy some shopping once in awhile, there really isn't much significance to it.
Same way with Dion. He will turn us into a socialist nightmare that France is trying to get themselves out of. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Sorry to say, but french really isn't that important. Other than going to Montreal to enjoy some shopping once in awhile, there really isn't much significance to it. |
Nah. The French-speaking population is going to double to about 750 million by 2050. It's especially important for English speakers because it's both one of the easiest languages to learn (compared to other languages of course, not saying that learning a language is easy) but it also has a long shared history with English that makes a knowledge of it necessary to understand how English works. French isn't going anywhere. All Canadians should want to know it. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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mithrades,
Can you post a link, to this great survey?
I don't care what the public opinion is - I care what trained professionals who speak both languages and who have experience evaluating language fluency have to say.
I too could go on the web and find dozens of links about how better Dion's English compares to Harper's French. What counts is authority in the sense of experience and knowledge.
Did you watch the two debates (French and English) ? What in the world would lead you to suggest Harper has anywhere near the clarity and "spontaneity" of Dion in their second language? Beats me. Harper speaks French like a clunky machine. I grade a person in terms of higher level fluency, on how they can "emote" in a foreign language. Harper doesn't at all. It is all about transference and it suggests to me, he is too busy "inside" translating and struggling to be able to evoke emotion....Dion can get angry in English, throw a tantrum and "gavte la nata" , take out the cork , as the Napolese say....
Anyways, we disagree. You might enjoy this - the gem in this quite pedantic election.....
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhgv85m852Q
DD |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
mithrades,
Can you post a link, to this great survey?
I don't care what the public opinion is - I care what trained professionals who speak both languages and who have experience evaluating language fluency have to say. |
Well, it's Quebecois public opinion, people that have French as their first language. Here's a link.
| Quote: |
| Did you watch the two debates (French and English) ? |
Of course. In fact, once the video froze up and left me with this image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/mithridates/Terminator.png
Doesn't he look like he should star as a T-800 or something?
| Quote: |
| What in the world would lead you to suggest Harper has anywhere near the clarity and "spontaneity" of Dion in their second language? Beats me. Harper speaks French like a clunky machine. I grade a person in terms of higher level fluency, on how they can "emote" in a foreign language. Harper doesn't at all. It is all about transference and it suggests to me, he is too busy "inside" translating and struggling to be able to evoke emotion....Dion can get angry in English, throw a tantrum and "gavte la nata" , take out the cork , as the Napolese say.... |
Well, we don't have to agree, I just wanted to show that it's not a set fact that Harper has horrid French while Dion has passable English. In fact, I've never really thought of it as a problem for Dion as I'm used to talking to people that use English as a second language and don't think it has much to do with governing the country. I think Preston Manning was the best prime minister we never had, for example. I also loved Chretien.
This guy also thinks Harper had the best French of the three:
http://blogues.cyberpresse.ca/lagace/?p=70721853
Le fran�ais de Harper est le meilleur des trois chefs anglos. De loin. Je parle ici de la facilit� qu�on a � comprendre ce qu�il dit, du manque d�h�sitations, du mot juste. Harper a les bons mots mais un accent et des h�sitations qui nous font oublier ce qu�il dit.
So yeah, it's a matter of opinion. Harper's French is fine though IMO and there's a lot of material online by francophones to back that up. |
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