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Bush may get tried
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:53 am    Post subject: Bush may get tried Reply with quote

Bush may not get impeached at this late date, but he may well get tried. Vermonters are independent-minded enough that they just may do it. Anyone know this candidatre's poll numbers?

Vermont candidate to prosecute Bush if she wins

By JOHN CURRAN, Associated Press Writer
Fri Sep 19, 3:45 AM ET



BURLINGTON, Vt. - Lots of political candidates make campaign promises. But not like Charlotte Dennett's.

Dennett, 61, the Progressive Party's candidate for Vermont Attorney General, said Thursday she will prosecute President Bush for murder if she's elected Nov. 4.

Dennett, an attorney and investigative journalist, says Bush must be held accountable for the deaths of thousands of people in Iraq � U.S. soldiers and Iraqi civilians. She believes the Vermont attorney general would have jurisdiction to do so.

She also said she would appoint a special prosecutor and already knows who that should be: former Los Angeles prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi, the author of "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder," a new book.

"Someone has to step forward," said Dennett, flanked by Bugliosi at a news conference announcing her plan. "Someone has to say we cannot put up with this lack of accountability any more."

Dennett and two others are challenging incumbent Attorney General William Sorrell, a Democrat, in the Nov. 4 election.

Bugliosi, 74, who gained fame as the prosecutor of killer Charles Manson, said any state attorney general would have jurisdiction since Bush committed "overt acts" including the military's recruitment of soldiers in Vermont and allegedly lying about the threat posed by former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein in speeches that were aired in Vermont and elsewhere.

"No man, even the president of the United States, is above the law," said Bugliosi.

The White House press office didn't respond to a request for comment Thursday. But Republican National Committee spokesman Blair Latoff denounced Dennett.

"It's extremely disappointing that a candidate for state attorney general is more concerned with radical left-wing provocation than upholding the law of Vermont," Latoff said. "These incendiary suggestions may score points among the most fringe elements of American society, but can't be settling for anyone looking for an attorney general."

Anti-Bush sentiment runs deep in Vermont. It's the only state Bush hasn't visited as president, and one whose liberal tendencies make it unlikely he will.

In 2007, the state Senate adopted a resolution calling for Congress to begin impeachment proceedings against Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney.

Last March, the towns of Brattleboro and Marlboro voted to seek indictments against Bush and Cheney over the war, and dozens of other towns voted at town meetings to call for his impeachment.

Sorrell, who is seeking a sixth term, said he doesn't believe a Vermont attorney general would have the authority to charge Bush.

"The reality is, in my view, that unless the crime takes place in Vermont, then I as the attorney general have no authority under Vermont law to be prosecuting the president," Sorrell said.
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Cheonmunka



Joined: 04 Jun 2004

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

During presidency he's never been to Vermont? Not even just a passing through?
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He never really got out much.

Before his presidency, he had never been outside the country!
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VanIslander



Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
Before his presidency, he had never been outside the country!

You are the only person around unfamiliar with his ol' cocaine trips to Mexico back in his twenties.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VanIslander wrote:
bacasper wrote:
Before his presidency, he had never been outside the country!

You are the only person around unfamiliar with his ol' cocaine trips to Mexico back in his twenties.

Before you tell me more, and I am very interested, does Bush know that New Mexico is part of the US?
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ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"No man, even the president of the United States, is above the law," said Bugliosi.


I do hope America returns to its roots. Not vindictively but "right"eously.

He should most of all be hung out to dry for wiping his feet on the constitution -- something much more sacred than any flag or fixation.

But the larger question is how do you "accuse" and try all those who falsely followed his slimy shadow?

DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com
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aka Dave



Joined: 02 May 2008
Location: Down by the river

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bernie Sanders, now this. God bless Vermont!
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ddeubel wrote:
Quote:
"No man, even the president of the United States, is above the law," said Bugliosi.


I do hope America returns to its roots. Not vindictively but "right"eously.

He should most of all be hung out to dry for wiping his feet on the constitution -- something much more sacred than any flag or fixation.

Yes. It is just "a god damn piece of paper" to him.

ddeubel wrote:
But the larger question is how do you "accuse" and try all those who falsely followed his slimy shadow?

As the old Turkish proverb goes, "The fish begins to stink at the head." Maybe we'll need a war crimes tribunal to handle all the cases. But start with him, continue with Cheney, etc., and let's see how far we get.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bacasper,

A war crimes tribunal would be far more appropriate than charging him with murder.

If the US would give him up, the ICC should acquit him in a Marbury v. Madison type precedent, but establish that they have the power and authority to try any and all heads of state. But it wont happen.
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NAVFC



Joined: 10 May 2006

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a idiotic story.
For one, a state doesnt have jurisdiction to prosecute someone for a crime unless said crime is committed in that state.

2ndly, casualties during war are not a crime.
It is commonly accepted that during a war people die.
The only acception is if you can prove someone INTENTIONALLY targetted civilians..

Deaths due to collateral damage while attacking military/government targets do not violate the Laws of Armed Conflict.

The same goes as far as attacking targets that arent military/government, but contribute to the enemy war effort (factories/ weapon R and D facilities, etc)
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NAVFC wrote:
This is a idiotic story.
For one, a state doesnt have jurisdiction to prosecute someone for a crime unless said crime is committed in that state.

2ndly, casualties during war are not a crime.
It is commonly accepted that during a war people die.
The only acception is if you can prove someone INTENTIONALLY targetted civilians..

Deaths due to collateral damage while attacking military/government targets do not violate the Laws of Armed Conflict.

The same goes as far as attacking targets that arent military/government, but contribute to the enemy war effort (factories/ weapon R and D facilities, etc)



Scanning the ICC's Rome Statute, it seems like if I were to try George Bush, I'd focus on a handful of accusations.

Before applying Article 8, the threshold question would be whether the conflict were international in character:

� Appeals Chamber Decision, Armed conflict [of int'l character] exists whenever there is a resort to armed force between States or protracted armed violence between gov'tal authorities and organized armed groups or between such grounds within a state
○ Intensity of conflict
○ AND organization of parties to the conflict
� For the Int'l Tribunal to have jurisdiction, a sufficient nexus must be established between the alleged offence and the armed conflict which gives rise to the applicability of int'l humanitarian law
○ Appeals Chamber, it is sufficient that the alleged crimes were closely related to the hostilities occurring in other parts of the territories controlled by the parties to the conflict

I think that its pretty clear that there's a nexus.

Article 8 War Crimes

1. The court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes in particular when committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such rights.

2. For the purposes of this Statute, "war crimes" means:
(a) Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely . . .

(vi) Wilfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial;
(vii) Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement;

(b) Other serious violation of the laws and customs applicable to int'l armed conflict . . .

(iv) intentionally launching an attack in the knoweldge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;

(xiv) declaring abolished, suspended or inadmissible in a court of law the rights and actions of the nationals of the hostile party

(xxi) committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment

There's a case for both sides here, I think. I think Bush could be acquitted of all these charges, but I also think a judge might find him guilty of several of them.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NAVFC wrote:
For one, a state doesnt have jurisdiction to prosecute someone for a crime unless said crime is committed in that state.

So maybe that's why he has avoided going there!

But seriously NAVFC and Kuros, have you read Vincent Bugliosi's The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder?

Quote:
I set forth an airtight legal case against George Bush that proves beyond all reasonable doubt that George Bush took this nation to war under false pretenses, on a lie, in Iraq, and therefore, under the law, he is guilty of murder for the deaths of over 4,000 young American soldiers in Iraq fighting his war, not your war or my war or America�s war, but his war.

...

I put together a case against George Bush that could result�it absolutely could result in his being prosecuted for first-degree murder in an American courtroom. I set forth the legal architecture against him, the overwhelming evidence of his guilt and the jurisdiction to prosecute him.


Coming from this renowned prosecutor with his perfect 21-0 record in murder prosecutions, it is nothing to sneeze at.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
NAVFC wrote:
For one, a state doesnt have jurisdiction to prosecute someone for a crime unless said crime is committed in that state.

So maybe that's why he has avoided going there!

But seriously NAVFC and Kuros, have you read Vincent Bugliosi's The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder?

Quote:
I set forth an airtight legal case against George Bush that proves beyond all reasonable doubt that George Bush took this nation to war under false pretenses, on a lie, in Iraq, and therefore, under the law, he is guilty of murder for the deaths of over 4,000 young American soldiers in Iraq fighting his war, not your war or my war or America�s war, but his war.

...

I put together a case against George Bush that could result�it absolutely could result in his being prosecuted for first-degree murder in an American courtroom. I set forth the legal architecture against him, the overwhelming evidence of his guilt and the jurisdiction to prosecute him.


Coming from this renowned prosecutor with his perfect 21-0 record in murder prosecutions, it is nothing to sneeze at.


No, I haven't read it. Maybe he has a case.
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Milwaukiedave



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong

PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
But seriously NAVFC and Kuros, have you read Vincent Bugliosi's The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder?


Alright, I'll bite. Where can you buy this book, it might be an interesting read?
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Wangja



Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
VanIslander wrote:
bacasper wrote:
Before his presidency, he had never been outside the country!

You are the only person around unfamiliar with his ol' cocaine trips to Mexico back in his twenties.

Before you tell me more, and I am very interested, does Bush know that New Mexico is part of the US?


Yes: he watches the Simpsons.
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