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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:47 am Post subject: Israeli Fundamentalism |
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We've all seen plenty of quotes from Palestinian Hamas leaders showing that a lot of them are unreasonable religious fundamentalists who are incapable of tolerating the existence of their neighbors. However what all the pro-Israeli posters ignore is that unreasonable religious fundamentalism also resides on the Israeli side of the divide. I found some evidence of this while reading 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins today.
This study by an Isreali psychologist showed that Israeli children had acquired fundamentalist attitudes from their parents which led them to believe that genocide was OK, as long as it was perpetrated by their in-group (the Jewish people):
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The Israelites' campaign to carry out their god's commandment to commit genocide against the native inhabitants of Canaan-cum-Palestine took several generations. It began with Joshua's massacre at Jericho. Contrary to the Christian song "Joshua Fought the Battle of Jericho," according to scripture there was no battle at all. It was a siege, at the end of which all of the city's inhabitants were killed except Rahab the prostitute (she and her family were spared in exchange for helping Joshua plan his strategy, Joshua 6:16-17, 19, 21, 24, RSV):
Joshua said to the people, "Shout; for the LORD has given you the city. And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the LORD for destruction . . . But all silver and gold, and vessels of bronze and iron, are sacred to the LORD; they shall go into the treasury of the LORD." . . . Then they utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and asses, with the edge of the sword . . . And they burned the city with fire, and all within it; only the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.
The half-life and penetrance of such cultural legacies are often under-appreciated. Some 3,000 years after the fall of Jericho, Israeli psychologist George Tamarin (1966, 1973) measured the strength of residual in-group morality. He presented Joshua 6:20-21 to 1,066 school children, ages 8-14, in order to test "the effect of uncritical teaching of the Bible on the propensity for forming prejudices (particularly the notion of the 'chosen people,' the superiority of the monotheistic religion, and the study of acts of genocide by biblical heroes)." The children's answers to the question "Do you think Joshua and the Israelites acted rightly or not?," were categorized as follows: "'A' means total approval, 'B' means partial approval or disapproval, and 'C' means total disapproval." Across a broad spectrum of Israeli social and economic classes, 66% of responses were "A," 8% "B," and 26% "C." The "A" answers tended to be as straightforward as they were numerous (Tamarin, 1966):
* In my opinion Joshua and the Sons of Israel acted well, and here are the reasons: God promised them this land, and gave them permission to conquer. If they would not have acted in this manner or killed anyone, then there would be the danger that the Sons of Israel would have assimilated among the "Goyim."
* In my opinion Joshua was right when he did it, one reason being that God commanded him to exterminate the people so that the tribes of Israel will not be able to assimilate amongst them and learn their bad ways.
* Joshua did good because the people who inhabited the land were of a different religion, and when Joshua killed them he wiped their religion from the earth. |
http://saltysleveen.blogspot.com/2007/01/joshua-jericho-genocide-and-fallacy-of.html
Remember these were responses from Israeli schoolchildren not Palestinians.
Also from the God Delusion, Dawkins gives a charming example of a daily prayer that male Orthodox and Conservative (but not Reform) Jews are taught to recite:
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| 'Blessed are You for not making me a Gentile. Blessed are You for not making me a woman. Blessed are You for not making me a slave.' |
Yes those Orthodox Jews are really so much more advanced than the fundamentalist Muslims aren't they? 
I can imagine this will be an eye-opener for those on this forum who view this as a fight between a secular state and religious maniacs. Many Israelis are just as religiously indoctrinated as the Palestinians and will not accept the existence of any Palestinian State on Greater Israel.
This is not any sort of apologetic for Hamas and their support of terror attacks or attack on the Jewish religion but to show you that religious fundamentalism exists on both sides. Even if Hamas never launched another terror/rocket attack the Israelis on the right are not going to stop pressing for more attacks and provocations against Palestinians until all have been expelled from the 'holy lands'.
Religion in general is the problem. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Wherever there is religion there will be fundamentalists.
The difference is the fundamentalists have not hijacked Judaism.
The Jewish street does not embrace the fundies. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
Wherever there is religion there will be fundamentalists.
The difference is the fundamentalists have not hijacked Judaism.
The Jewish street does not embrace the fundies. |
Read carefully:
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The children's answers to the question "Do you think Joshua and the Israelites acted rightly or not?," were categorized as follows: "'A' means total approval, 'B' means partial approval or disapproval, and 'C' means total disapproval." Across a broad spectrum of Israeli social and economic classes, 66% of responses were "A," 8% "B," and 26% "C." |
66% does not constitute a 'fringe'. The Israeli children have been well indoctrinated. You are unwilling to hear anything negative about Israel which gives me the feeling you are one of the fundamentalists yourself. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: |
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You want me comment on your link to a Canadian Anti-Semitic blog?
Check your references.
Back to your Canadian churches and schools. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
You want me comment on your link to a Canadian Anti-Semitic blog?
Check your references.
Back to your Canadian churches and schools. |
The quote is citing a study by an Israeli psychologist in Israel. Are you saying this Israeli psychologist is an antisemite? 
And what's all this talk about Canada? Seems like some people can't handle the truth. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Your link is to a Canadian Anti-Semitic blog. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
| Your link is to a Canadian Anti-Semitic blog. |
The blog doesn't matter, the same study has been cited elsewhere most famously in 'The God Delusion'. This just happened to be the first link that I found on google when I was looking it up but the information is exactly the same as in the book.
The study was conducted by an Israeli psychologist in Israel (George Tamarin). Are you claiming that this Israeli psychologist is antisemitic? Seems that whenever there is something that can be interpreted as critical of Israel in anyway the antisemitic charges start getting thrown around. Why can't anyone on the pro-Israeli side allow that it is possible to criticize Israel in anyway and yet not be antisemitic? Personally speaking, I have no problem with the Jewish religion except I abhor its fundamentalist and extremist aspect just as much as I abhor Muslim fundamentalism. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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