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The US justice system Can't Handle Al Qaeda
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: The US justice system Can't Handle Al Qaeda Reply with quote

Judge deals blow to govt in Moussaoui trial
Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:23pm ET


Quote:
U.S. News
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More U.S. News... Email This Article | Print This Article [-] Text [+] By Deborah Charles

ALEXANDRIA, Virginia (Reuters) - In a sharp blow to the U.S. government's only case connected to the September 11 hijackings, a federal judge on Tuesday said sentencing for Zacarias Moussaoui could go ahead but without critical aviation-related testimony and evidence.

U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema had considered throwing out the death penalty case after discovering that a government lawyer had improperly shared information with witnesses.

After a day-long hearing, she decided to resume on Monday the trial that will determine if Moussaoui, who has pleaded guilty to conspiracy in connection with the hijacked airliner attacks, will be executed.


But Brinkema said the Federal Aviation Administration and Transportation Security Administration witnesses who had been contacted by government lawyer Carla Martin would not be able to testify and evidence from them would not be allowed.

"I am removing from this case any and all witnesses and evidence dealing with the aviation component," Brinkema said.

"What we have in this case ... is that six witnesses -- two for the government and four potential defense witnesses, were tainted," she said.

Aviation-related testimony was expected to deal with how much information the FAA had about possible threats to airlines and also discuss pre-September 11 security measures. The prosecution had argued the witnesses were vital, with the aviation portion of the government's argument representing about half of the evidence of Moussaoui's guilt.

The government is trying to prove that if Moussaoui had not lied to the FBI when he was arrested three weeks before September 11, the FAA would been able to thwart the attacks through increased security measures on airplanes.



70,000 trained in Al Qaeda camps during the 90's

600 -700 (accused) Al Qaeda agents are in Gunatanamo.


At least 700 and upto 70,000 trials like Moussaoui? It would overwhelm the US justice system and think of all the anti US left wing lawyers that would come from all over the world just for the chance to screw over the US.

Al Qaeda fights to gain gain a fascist caliphate where those unfortunate enough to be of other relgions are expelled , made into slaves or slaughtered.

They will show no mercy and stop and nothing.

The US needs the Patriot act - more than ever. Without it Al Qaeda will be even more free to attack.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That film was so over rated.

Free Al Qaeda fighters means mass murder.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prosecutor: Moussaoui case may not go forward
U.S. mulls appeal, other options after judge bars key witnesses
From Phil Hirschkorn
CNN



ALEXANDRIA, Virginia (CNN) -- Federal prosecutors are considering abandoning their crippled death penalty case against al Qaeda conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui, a transcript of a closed-door meeting with the judge reveals.

"Without some relief, frankly, I think that there's no point for us to go forward," prosecutor Robert Spencer told U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema after a ruling Tuesday that gutted half his case.

Because of misconduct by a government attorney, Carla Martin, Brinkema decided to bar "any and all witnesses and evidence dealing whatsoever" with aviation security.

She lambasted prosecutors, saying, "In the annals of criminal law, I don't know if there has ever been a case with this many significant problems."

Moussaoui has admitted participating in an al Qaeda plan to fly jetliners into landmark U.S. buildings. A jury has been hearing testimony that will help them decide whether Moussaoui should be executed or spend the rest of his life in prison.

The trial came to a halt Monday when it was revealed that Martin had coached witnesses by sending them transcripts and notes about trial testimony by e-mail, in violation of a court order.

Brinkema's ruling stopped short of granting the defense request to dismiss the death penalty option, but it gutted half of the government's case for executing Moussaoui.

Immediately after the ruling was announced, Spencer said the government would consider an appeal, and prosecutors are meeting Wednesday to discuss their options.

But at a meeting in Brinkema's chambers later Tuesday, Spencer also suggested prosecutors may throw in the towel.

"What I'd call the FBI portion of the case can certainly go forward," Brinkema said, according to the transcript.

"It can, your honor, but we don't know whether it is worth us proceeding at all, candidly, under the ruling you made today, and that's why we need to assess it, because without some relief, frankly, I think that there's no point for us to go forward," Spencer said.

He asked for time for prosecutors to regroup and mull their options.

"That's why we want to just, rather than waste the jury's time and the court's time, and we're all mindful of the expense of this proceeding, that we ought just to weigh our rights for reconsideration of our appellate rights, your honor," Spencer said.

Brinkema has delayed the resumption of the trial until Monday.

Prosecutors have told the jury that Moussaoui's lies to federal agents after his arrest in August 2001 contributed directly to nearly 3,000 deaths on September 11.

Had Moussaoui revealed his al Qaeda ties and the terror group's hijacking plans rather than covering that up, prosecutors say, the FBI and aviation security officials would have taken steps to thwart the plot.

The defense disputes that, saying investigators would not have unraveled the plot in the 25 days between Moussaoui's arrest on an immigration violation and the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington.

Brinkema's ruling blocks not only a half-dozen witnesses who work for the Federal Aviation Administration and Transportation Security Administration but also may have the practical effect of blocking testimony from airline security experts, who also are on the government's witness list.

Prosecutors are drafting a motion for Brinkema to reconsider her ruling. It could be filed by the end of the day.

Alternatively, prosecutors have the option to appeal directly to the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, arguing that Brinkema's decision to exclude witnesses and suppress evidence was improper. Prosecutors could ask the court to order Brinkema to allow the aviation witnesses to testify.

"It happens during trials, but it's a very high standard they would have to meet," said former federal prosecutor Andrew McBride. "They need to show a clear error of law on Brinkema's part and there's irreparable harm to the United States."

Moussaoui is the only person to stand trial in the United States in connection with the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.








Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/15/moussaoui.trial/index.html
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huffdaddy



Joined: 25 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: The US justice system Can't Handle Al Qaeda Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

At least 700 and upto 70,000 trials like Moussaoui? It would overwhelm the US justice system and think of all the anti US left wing lawyers that would come from all over the world just for the chance to screw over the US.


Since when was the right to a fair trial "anti US"? Or would we be better off with gulags?

Quote:

Al Qaeda fights to gain gain a fascist caliphate where those unfortunate enough to be of other relgions are expelled , made into slaves or slaughtered.


Check out the news from Iraq. More Muslims are being slaughtered by Al Qaea right now then any other religion.

Quote:

They will show no mercy and stop and nothing.

The US needs the Patriot act - more than ever. Without it Al Qaeda will be even more free to attack.


The Patriot Act does diddly. To think that it has staved off another attack on the US is fool hearted. There were 8 years between WTC attacks. It's only a matter of time before the next one. And despite the fact that the last two major European attacks (London and Madrid) were on mass transit, Bush has not made protecting mass transit a priority. Gee, I wonder where the next attack might take place? But of course, only the poor and Democrats take mass transit.
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johnriley007



Joined: 25 Jun 2004

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"At least 700 and upto 70,000 trials like Moussaoui? It would overwhelm the US justice system and think of all the anti US left wing lawyers that would come from all over the world just for the chance to screw over the US. "

taking transcripts of testimony from grand jury witnesses and other witnesses in the case, and supplying those transcripts to some witnesses who were to
testify in the sentencing hearing, is a MAJOR BREACH in legal ethics. grand jury testimony is supposed to be strictly secret. if the prosecutor did what the story said, she could not only be disbarred, but criminally prosecuted.

also, he was already found guilty. this was just the sentencing phase, so he will be in prison for life.

next time, before you go off on 'left wing' lawyers, make sure you have the facts straight. the prosecutor screwed up big-time! the judge rightly nailed her for it. this was not a group of left-wing lawyers trying 'screw over the US." they're actually really lucky this happened during the sentencing phase and not the trial itself. at least this way he'll be in prison for life at the worst. a lot of people who should have gone to prison, don't b/c of dumbasses like this prosecutor.
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Wangja



Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope my American friends here take this as a huge vindication of the US justice system.

If that very freedom for all later permits one AQ operative to go free, so be it.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: The US justice system Can't Handle Al Qaeda Reply with quote

[

Quote:
Since when was the right to a fair trial "anti US"? Or would we be better off with gulags
? A fair trial isn't anti US, however there are lots of international America haters world wide that would love to get Al Qaida fighters off cause they hate the US so much.

anyway should an Al Qaida fighter be let go cause illegal wire tap?



Quote:
Check out the news from Iraq. More Muslims are being slaughtered by Al Qaea right now then any other religion.


that maybe true but Khomeni killed muslims and Saddam killed muslims yet they enjoyed a lot of support in that region of the world.

[quote]


Quote:
The Patriot Act does diddly. To think that it has staved off another attack on the US is fool hearted. There were 8 years between WTC attacks. It's only a matter of time before the next one. And despite the fact that the last two major European attacks (London and Madrid) were on mass transit, Bush has not made protecting mass transit a priority. Gee, I wonder where the next attack might take place? But of course, only the poor and Democrats take mass transit.


You don't have any evidence that the Patriot act is not effective. It maybe a matter of time before the next attack but what is the reason that Al Qaida did not attack in the US yet? Cause they weren't trying?


The US has so many targets and they can not all be defended.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
taking transcripts of testimony from grand jury witnesses and other witnesses in the case, and supplying those transcripts to some witnesses who were to
testify in the sentencing hearing, is a MAJOR BREACH in legal ethics. grand jury testimony is supposed to be strictly secret. if the prosecutor did what the story said, she could not only be disbarred, but criminally prosecuted.

also, he was already found guilty. this was just the sentencing phase, so he will be in prison for life.

next time, before you go off on 'left wing' lawyers, make sure you have the facts straight. the prosecutor screwed up big-time! the judge rightly nailed her for it. this was not a group of left-wing lawyers trying 'screw over the US." they're actually really lucky this happened during the sentencing phase and not the trial itself. at least this way he'll be in prison for life at the worst. a lot of people who should have gone to prison, don't b/c of dumbasses like this prosecutor.[



I was not going off of the lawyers for Mousaui , but their are many lawyers out there quite a few from other nations who would love to screw the US.

If the US can 't even get one 9-11 terrorist dead how is the US going to handle those in Gitmao or the 70,000 who trained in AQ camps in the 90's?

What I am more concerned about than anything is the very likely possibilty that an AQ thug will go free because someone did an illegal search or an illegal wire tap. If there are hundreds of these trials then quite a few of these guys will go free. It is inevitable

When these guys go free they will be back soon enough to commit an act of mass murder.


Think about this the US let Bin Laden go from the Sudan to Afghanistan cause the US thought that the US didn't have the evidence to convict Bin Laden in a US court. Is the US better off today cause of that decision?
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huffdaddy



Joined: 25 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: The US justice system Can't Handle Al Qaeda Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
[

Quote:
Since when was the right to a fair trial "anti US"? Or would we be better off with gulags
? A fair trial isn't anti US, however there are lots of international America haters world wide that would love to get Al Qaida fighters off cause they hate the US so much.

Aren't Moussaoui's lawyers cleared and court appointed? I don't think Muhammad Muhammad Esq is going to be defending anyone.

Quote:

anyway should an Al Qaida fighter be let go cause illegal wire tap?


A nice loaded question. Let's see...

One, Mussaoui isn't being let go, so it's a moot point. Two, the ruling wasn't wrt illegal wire taps, but rather "tampering with trial witnesses and lying to defense attorneys." Three, why can't the government use existing procedures for obtaining wire taps? Lastly, define "an Al Qaida fighter."


Quote:

Quote:
Check out the news from Iraq. More Muslims are being slaughtered by Al Qaea right now then any other religion.


that maybe true but Khomeni killed muslims and Saddam killed muslims yet they enjoyed a lot of support in that region of the world.


Point being, Al Qaeda isn't involved in a "religious war." Dubya could start praying five times a day, and it won't stop Al Qaeda.

Quote:

Quote:
The Patriot Act does diddly. To think that it has staved off another attack on the US is fool hearted. There were 8 years between WTC attacks. It's only a matter of time before the next one. And despite the fact that the last two major European attacks (London and Madrid) were on mass transit, Bush has not made protecting mass transit a priority. Gee, I wonder where the next attack might take place? But of course, only the poor and Democrats take mass transit.


You don't have any evidence that the Patriot act is not effective.


nor is there any evidence that it was been effective above and beyond what existed before 9/11.

Quote:
It maybe a matter of time before the next attack but what is the reason that Al Qaida did not attack in the US yet? Cause they weren't trying?

The US has so many targets and they can not all be defended.


Of course they can't. But you'd think that they would start with the obvious ones.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: The US justice system Can't Handle Al Qaeda Reply with quote

Quote:
Aren't Moussaoui's lawyers cleared and court appointed? I don't think Muhammad Muhammad Esq is going to be defending anyone.[/quote]

Yes but one Al Qaida trial is this tough how tough will hundreds of them,

There will be lawyers and advocates from all over the world trying to help these thugs

Quote:

anyway should an Al Qaida fighter be let go cause illegal wire tap?


Quote:
A nice loaded question. Let's see...

One, Mussaoui isn't being let go, so it's a moot point. Two, the ruling wasn't wrt illegal wire taps, but rather "tampering with trial witnesses and lying to defense attorneys." Three, why can't the government use existing procedures for obtaining wire taps? Lastly, define "an Al Qaida fighter."


One Al Qaida a big one is this much trial what would 100's of them be like?

AQ fighter anyone that would knowingly offer direct material support to the organization.

As for wire taps it would take time to get permission for one. That time could be crucial.



Quote:
Point being, Al Qaeda isn't involved in a "religious war." Dubya could start praying five times a day, and it won't stop Al Qaeda.


I don't understand your point.

But the fact is that Al Qaida is a fascist hate group and they have a lot of support in many places . The fact that they killed muslims doesn't change this



Quote:
nor is there any evidence that it was been effective above and beyond what existed before 9/11.


Oh yes there is why hasn' t Al Qaida stuck again in the US. What the US had before 9-11 was not effective. That is why AQaeda was able to strike.

This is better than what you got which is that before 9-11 what the US had in place wasn't good enough

Quote:
It maybe a matter of time before the next attack but what is the reason that Al Qaida did not attack in the US yet? Cause they weren't trying?

The US has so many targets and they can not all be defended.


Quote:
Of course they can't. But you'd think that they would start with the obvious ones.



OK , but the best way to get rid of Al Qaeda is force the police states of the mideast to kill all the supporters of Al Qaeda within their own nations.
They all have effective intellegence services and they control the media and know what the elites do in their nations
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't take time to get a wire tap - in a crucial situation the law already permits an instantaneous wire tap, followed by an application for a court order (I think within 36 hours).
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huffdaddy



Joined: 25 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: The US justice system Can't Handle Al Qaeda Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
Quote:
Aren't Moussaoui's lawyers cleared and court appointed? I don't think Muhammad Muhammad Esq is going to be defending anyone.


Yes but one Al Qaida trial is this tough how tough will hundreds of them,

There will be lawyers and advocates from all over the world trying to help these thugs


and the alternative is...


Quote:


Quote:

anyway should an Al Qaida fighter be let go cause illegal wire tap?


Quote:
A nice loaded question. Let's see...

One, Mussaoui isn't being let go, so it's a moot point. Two, the ruling wasn't wrt illegal wire taps, but rather "tampering with trial witnesses and lying to defense attorneys." Three, why can't the government use existing procedures for obtaining wire taps? Lastly, define "an Al Qaida fighter."


One Al Qaida a big one is this much trial what would 100's of them be like?

AQ fighter anyone that would knowingly offer direct material support to the organization.

As for wire taps it would take time to get permission for one. That time could be crucial.


Again, what's the alternative to trials?

If "direct material support" is the benchmark, there's not going to be enough room in all of Cuba for them. But let's at least start with Rumsfield, Cheney, et al who were involved in the funding of Sadaam and the Taliban.

wrt wiretaps, see post by mithridates.

Quote:

Quote:
Point being, Al Qaeda isn't involved in a "religious war." Dubya could start praying five times a day, and it won't stop Al Qaeda.


I don't understand your point.

But the fact is that Al Qaida is a fascist hate group and they have a lot of support in many places . The fact that they killed muslims doesn't change this


You said wrote:
Al Qaeda fights to gain gain a fascist caliphate where those unfortunate enough to be of other relgions are expelled , made into slaves or slaughtered.


"fascist hate group" - yes. religious warriors - no.

Quote:

Quote:
nor is there any evidence that it was been effective above and beyond what existed before 9/11.


Oh yes there is why hasn' t Al Qaida stuck again in the US. What the US had before 9-11 was not effective. That is why AQaeda was able to strike.


It was 8 years between WTC attacks. It's been less then 5 years since 9/11. So first, the Patriot Act has to at least exceed the previous measures. Which were working just fine, if only the administration had been paying attention. The warning signs were there, they were just too ineffectual to heed them.

Quote:

This is better than what you got which is that before 9-11 what the US had in place wasn't good enough

Quote:
It maybe a matter of time before the next attack but what is the reason that Al Qaida did not attack in the US yet? Cause they weren't trying?

The US has so many targets and they can not all be defended.


Quote:
Of course they can't. But you'd think that they would start with the obvious ones.



OK , but the best way to get rid of Al Qaeda is force the police states of the mideast to kill all the supporters of Al Qaeda within their own nations.
They all have effective intellegence services and they control the media and know what the elites do in their nations


Is that seriously your solution? I've lived in a country with a police state, and if you really think that's going to be effective, you have no idea what goes on in the world. Not to mention the freedom-inspiring message that this would send to the world. We might as well just herd all the Muslims into gas chambers.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wangja wrote:
I hope my American friends here take this as a huge vindication of the US justice system.

If that very freedom for all later permits one AQ operative to go free, so be it.


Indeed, we do.

I'm glad it is affirmed that govt prosecutors are held accountable to strict rules of conduct.

Conversely, I hope my pro-Michael Moore/antiAmerican friends see the problem in their arguments that W. Bush is a dictator in control of the courts, including the Supreme Court, etc., etc.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: The US justice system Can't Handle Al Qaeda Reply with quote

Quote:
and the alternative is...


Make sure the US can US evidence from illegal searches or wire taps against them. That ought to tip the balance against them.






Quote:
Again, what's the alternative to trials?


plas seeaboe

Quote:
If "direct material support" is the benchmark, there's not going to be enough room in all of Cuba for them. But let's at least start with Rumsfield, Cheney, et al who were involved in the funding of Sadaam and the Taliban.


the US supported Saddam Vs Khomeni. show what support they gave the Taliban.

Quote:
wrt wiretaps, see post by mithridates.


Ok
Quote:

places . The fact that they killed muslims doesn't change this



Quote:
"fascist hate group" - yes. religious warriors - no.


thye are a fascist hate group.

Quote:
It was 8 years between WTC attacks. It's been less then 5 years since 9/11. So first, the Patriot Act has to at least exceed the previous measures. Which were working just fine, if only the administration had been paying attention. The warning signs were there, they were just too ineffectual to heed them.


The warning signs are always there. You tell us the US could have picked the time and the buildings and the way AQ was going to attack.

The US govt is huge and differnet branches don't communicate w/each other.





Quote:
Is that seriously your solution? I've lived in a country with a police state, and if you really think that's going to be effective, you have no idea what goes on in the world.




Really why is that. Mideast regimes are police states they control the media and who gets funded. Did you see how Saudi Arabia took down Al Qaida? I don't see Quadda is Libya. Iran doesn't worry much about them.

why would it not be effective?


Quote:
Not to mention the freedom-inspiring message that this would send to the world. We might as well just herd all the Muslims into gas chambers.



??

The mideast is already full of police states - those who oppose the govt are taken care of. What is wrong with them just wiping out Al Qaidia while they are at it?

Their intellegence services are very very effective. They know what goes on within their own countires. It is not like there is much domestic oppostion over there

Why should anyone be free to fund Al Qaida teach hate, plan terror, or fund Al Qaida, or incite violence.


What is comment about gas chambers? If you think that Al Qaida represents muslims then that is quite an insult to the relgion of Islam.

I mean Al Qaida attacks Shia mosques.

The relgion is not the problem

the problem is not that Al Qaida are muslims, the problem is that they are fascist bigots.

They are like the Klu Klux Klan just in a different place and better funded.
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