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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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 Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: French PM: welfare state is unsustainable |
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32705911/ns/world_news/
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CERNOBBIO, Italy - The prime minister of France, the country perhaps most associated with the cherished "European model" of job security and social safety nets, warned Saturday that it may prove unsustainable because the region's economies are too stagnant.
"With this sluggish growth, we cannot preserve the European social model or reduce our public debt," said Fillon, addressing a high-level gathering of political and business leaders at Italy's Lake Como. "The level of our structural deficits threatens the long-term survival of our economy," he added. |
Is "sluggish growth" truly to blame? Perhaps free universal health care, 32hour workweeks, work-free Augusts, strike-ready labour unions, stifled private investment, etc. could be the problem? All western-European welfare states are collapsing because of low birth rates, a growing cadre of dependant elderly people, and low productivity: these systems are in their sunset years, and France faces some very painful choices.
Economic crisis aside, the above is inevitable: France is literally dying. While it lavishly subsidizes its system, the population falls. And its social problems increase. A good day in a French suburb is when "youths" torch only 7 cars. Indiginous French peoples, coddled by a welfare state, are dwindling in number: they are also the ones working and keeping the system going. They also have an immigrant population that is increasing rapidly because of high birth rates: this immigrant population loves the social programs (financed mostly by older Frenchies) and has found that they can live quit comrfortably off of it without working. France's system is not sustainable in the long-term.
Good luck getting Fillon to admit the real problems. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:31 am Post subject: |
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It isn't sustainable. Maybe without the boomers demographic bulge and low birth rates it could be but an aging society, large entitlements and a shrinking society can't be squared.
| Quote: |
| Is "sluggish growth" truly to blame? Perhaps free universal health care, 32hour workweeks, work-free Augusts, strike-ready labour unions, stifled private investment, etc. could be the problem? All western-European welfare states are collapsing because of low birth rates, a growing cadre of dependant elderly people, and low productivity: these systems are in their sunset years, and France faces some very painful choices. |
The French medical system is actually not part of the problem. It is quite efficient. I'd like to see Canada move towards more of a French model. The 4 day work week isn't all that unreasonable either, provided the society is willing to take a hit to their material quality of life in favour of more free time. I would be willing to make that trade off. It is the layer upon layer of small benefits that will ruin the system. And unions.. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
It isn't sustainable. Maybe without the boomers demographic bulge and low birth rates it could be but an aging society, large entitlements and a shrinking society can't be squared.
| Quote: |
| Is "sluggish growth" truly to blame? Perhaps free universal health care, 32hour workweeks, work-free Augusts, strike-ready labour unions, stifled private investment, etc. could be the problem? All western-European welfare states are collapsing because of low birth rates, a growing cadre of dependant elderly people, and low productivity: these systems are in their sunset years, and France faces some very painful choices. |
The French medical system is actually not part of the problem. It is quite efficient. I'd like to see Canada move towards more of a French model. The 4 day work week isn't all that unreasonable either, provided the society is willing to take a hit to their material quality of life in favour of more free time. I would be willing to make that trade off. It is the layer upon layer of small benefits that will ruin the system. And unions.. |
The low quality of the French health system in the area of emergency response has been documented to have resluted in the death of Princess Diana.
In the United States, Diana would have survived the accident.
The quality of health care in the European countries where I have lived is far lower than in the US. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
The low quality of the French health system in the area of emergency response has been documented to have resluted in the death of Princess Diana.
In the United States, Diana would have survived the accident.
The quality of health care in the European countries where I have lived is far lower than in the US. |
It's like you suck up Repub talking points and spew them up onto this board. Source? So I can easily dispute. Where have you lived in the EU? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Refute away. Good luck. Start with France and Diana.
Remember, you cannot use the phony stats created by the socialists.
You have to use statistics that have been adjusted for population demographic factors: age, nationality, race, sex.
Just as you cannot compare the health outcomes of men and women, because they are different, you cannot compare health stats that have different mixes of ages, nationalities, or races. You have to compare apples with apples.
So, find health stats that compare Swedes living in the US with Swedes living in Sweden with Swedes living in every other country, by sex and age. Make sure that all your groups are comparing the same nationality and race by age and sex in each country.
The socialists never do this type of proper statistical comparison. They have used phony statistics and passed their lies off as science. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Errr...no, seriously. I was asking for a source for your claims. I presume you've got one? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| Errr...no, seriously. I was asking for a source for your claims. I presume you've got one? |
I have lived in several EU countries. You don't seem to care which, so pick one that's easy for you. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Yup, which one? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| Yup, which one? |
Why not start with France. You have to overcome the death of Diana caused by the horrible French system. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| How long did you live there? What problems did you face? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Drunk posting again Rufus? |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Fine: UK, what problems did you face? (apart from the fact you didn't need to purchase insurance)
[Edited out response to Mises' comment]
Last edited by RufusW on Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: French PM: welfare state is unsustainable |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32705911/ns/world_news/
Is "sluggish growth" truly to blame? Perhaps free universal health care, 32hour workweeks, work-free Augusts, strike-ready labour unions, stifled private investment, etc. could be the problem? All western-European welfare states are collapsing because of low birth rates, a growing cadre of dependent elderly people, and low productivity: these systems are in their sunset years, and France faces some very painful choices.
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Actually, the social system can survive because Europeans are productive.
What you are referring to is that Europeans don't work a lot, but with the time given, they do achieve a lot.
Dig a little bit deeper in the numbers. Like GDP/hour worked.
The problem with high productivity happens when Demand starts slacking. The few hours become even fewer, and the relative income streams will disappear faster then other, less productive, labor situations.
The social welfare system is a viable option, as long as waste (Big government) is minimized. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: French PM: welfare state is unsustainable |
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| Juregen wrote: |
| The social welfare system is a viable option, as long as waste (Big government) is minimized. |
Sure, them cheese-eaters work smart. But France is the epitome of big government. The "social welfare" system aka ponzi scheme needs babies who are likely to grow up and contribute; which France is lacking. They'll be much less "productive" in 30 years. The largest "demand" France will see is from its socialist demanding seniors, who will soon represent 60% of the country! |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: French PM: welfare state is unsustainable |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| Juregen wrote: |
| The social welfare system is a viable option, as long as waste (Big government) is minimized. |
Sure, them cheese-eaters work smart. But France is the epitome of big government. The "social welfare" system aka ponzi scheme needs babies who are likely to grow up and contribute; which France is lacking. They'll be much less "productive" in 30 years. The largest "demand" France will see is from its socialist demanding seniors, who will soon represent 60% of the country! |
France's fertility rate is 1.98 children/woman. Its median age is 39.
For Europe (or East Asia even) this is fairly good.
Compare with:
Germany (1.4c/w, ma 43),
UK (1.66c/w, ma 40),
Spain (w1.3c/w, ma 41),
Poland (1.28c/w, ma 38 ),
Italy (1.3c/w, ma 43),
Ukraine (1.26c/w, ma 39),
South Korea (1.2c/w, ma 37),
Japan (1.2c/w, ma 44),
and even China (1.8c/w, ma 34).
Also see:
Canada (1.58c/w, ma 40)
United States (2.05c/w, ma 38 )
France's birthrate is high for the developed world, topped only by the United States. |
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