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oldfatfarang
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: On the road to somewhere.
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 Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: Grammar Question |
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How many people in the North suffer at the hands of the government?
How much people in the North suffer at the hands of the government?
Obviously, many is correct. But why??? Is the grammar rule something to do with much/many and countable/uncountable nouns?
The 'much' sentence is in a Korean text book - but, to me, it's been written by a non-native speaker (as 'suffer at the hands of' is a very formal/stilted phrase that's not commonly used).
Any help appreciated. Thanks. |
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HappyPineapple
Joined: 23 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I know...
Much is used with singular nouns "How much tea can you drink?"
And Many is used with plural nounts "How many teas can you drink?" |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Question |
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| oldfatfarang wrote: |
(1) How many people in the North suffer at the hands of the government?
(2) How much people in the North suffer at the hands of the government?
Obviously, many is correct. But why??? |
Question number 2, to make sense, should be written as:
How much do people in the North suffer at the hands of the government?
The "do" is the auxiliary verb of "suffer". "Much" describes "suffer", showing the degree of suffering.
For question number 1, "many" quantifies "people", and does not describe the degree of suffering. "Do" is inferred, as in "How many people in the North (do indeed) suffer at the hands of the government?"
Does that make sense? |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| you gotta be kidding |
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Cerriowen
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Location: Pocheon
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Countable and uncountable nouns.
How many (fish, people, cars)
How much (water, sand, time) |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| you gotta be kidding |
Second.
Does the OP claim English as a native language as well? |
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antoniothegreat
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| VanIslander wrote: |
| you gotta be kidding |
Second.
Does the OP claim English as a native language as well? |
in his defense, just beause you can speak a language doesn't mean you can explain the grammar. to find that out, just ask a korean to explain a few korean grammar points...
korean text books to teach english are horrible, absolute garbage. one of my favorites was... "my dog snoopy is very cute to me. he waves his tail to me when i am near."
basically, the author just literally translated the korean into english. horrible garbage. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| If an everday average Joe didn't know how to explain it then I see no problem. One would assume, being on this board, that he is an English teacher however, and that he should be able to explain one of the simplest of grammar rules to a student. |
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jadarite
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Location: Andong, Yeongyang, Seoul, now Pyeongtaek
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Not only is it harder to explain the grammar than speak it, but we stop applying rules at a certain point. It's not always clear and usually based more on culture (how many teas/coffees).
Thank you Hanson (I really hate typing that word cause of the band) for the post. I have been trying to find ways to combine "do" with the actual verb. |
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oldfatfarang
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: On the road to somewhere.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.
Yes, I teach English here (I prepare 6 lesson plans a week - and teach 7-8 lessons per week) - and I'm a native-speaker. I've never taught formal grammar and haven't seen a text book for a long, long time.
This inquiry came from a Korean teacher. And while I explained to him that the sentence was incorrect - I felt he needed a 'grammar translation' expalantion. I didn't need it - and neither did the students (we all knew it was incorrect). But, this is Korea - and if you're going to criticize a text-book (written by a Korean), then you need a formal explanation.
Merry Xmas all. |
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branchsnapper
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| It's one of the most basic grammar rules. There isn't any call for going into the "Crazy Koreans demand useless complex grammar explanations" routine. |
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maingman
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Location: left Korea
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oldfatfarang
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: On the road to somewhere.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: n |
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| maingman wrote: |
http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/index.html
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Thanks for that website. It looks very helpful for us grammatically challenged 'teachers'. I haven't seen any of that scary stuff since my CELTA days.
Now all I need is for Daves to install a spell check.
I'll have a go when I get back. But, right now, "Tis the season to be jolly,' so I'm escaping to the tropics. Sun, fun, sunbathing, swimming, fishing, Buddha, Thai food - and not a grammar rule in sight. Yippie!
Merry Xmas all. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Sentence 2 could also make sense if the final puntuation were changed to this: !
How much people in the the north suffer at the hands of the government!
Not a great sentence, but possible. |
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oldfatfarang
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: On the road to somewhere.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
Sentence 2 could also make sense if the final puntuation were changed to this: !
How much people in the the north suffer at the hands of the government!
Not a great sentence, but possible. |
I hadn't thought about that one. Well done that man. Carry on. |
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