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pest2

Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject:

The Grumpy Senator wrote:

I did the hiring for my former school and I have nothing but good things to say about Ben, Dave, and Ryan at Footprints. They always keep both the school and the teachers up to date with what is happening. They have been a big help trying to figure out the new visa requirements and always provide excellent candidates for hire. In my time at my school, we have hired well over 50 teachers from Footprints and everything has gone smooth, over 50% of our teachers have even signed an extension to stay longer. I am a Footprints alumni myself with 3 years at the school they put me in contact with.

I know you cannot make everyone happy all the time, but I think Footprints does a far better job than any of the other recruiters I have dealt with.

Right, Footprints is probably good from the School-side of things. They just dont work in the interests of teachers, as seen by most of this thread.

John_ESL_White

Joined: 12 Nov 2008

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: hakwon jobs thru footprints

mountainous wrote:

John_ESL_White wrote:

So far, I've read that SLP, Wonderland, and LCI Kids' Club are among Footprint's client base.

That alone is reason enough to go with another recruiter...

Do you have any links to support the association of these notorious Korean hakwons to Footprints? Thanks for doing this homework. Exclamation

yeah. This thread. Someone said that they received offers to work at SLP, Wonderland and Kid's Club when they went through Footprints.

read the entire thread.... it's here somewhere or I wouldn't have brought it up.....

mountainous

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: EFL Classroom Survey of Footprints Recruited Teachers

Re: EFL Classroom Survey of Footprints Recruited Teachers

ddeubel wrote:

I will state this for the last time. Don't know Ben and have nothing to do with Footprints. I don't sell anything or make a penny in any way from teaching other than my salary and payments for workshops/lectures I deliver.

ddeubel wrote:

Further, I've spoken individually and in groups to hundreds of Footprints recruited teachers. I've only gotten good reports. I have no affiliation with them�

ddeubel wrote:

I stand by my own opinion that my survey is much more thorough than a messageboard discussion like the one you refer to.

Thanks for sharing your criticism of the poll here at Dave�s ESL Caf�. You have the option of posting a poll on your own website which may boast more credibility than your oral survey of "hundreds of footprints recruited teachers," all of whom gave you a positive report. Very Happy

Let's turn our attention to that survey now.

My understanding of EFL Classroom�s survey is that (a) it was conducted orally and (b) it showed a 100% job satisfaction rate among hundreds of EFL teachers in Korea. Please let me know if my understanding of EFL Classroom's survey is incorrect.

If you don't mind and because we are both interested in helping teachers learn about jobs that have a 100% satisfaction rating, please respond to these questions regarding EFL Classroom's survey:

1) Did EFL Classroom also survey groups of teachers that were recruited by other recruiters? (You indicated only that you have spoken to hundreds of Footprints recruited teachers.)

2) Wouldn�t it have been more efficient and accurate for EFL Classroom to take a WRITTEN survey from its �groups of hundreds of Footprints recruited teachers�?

Please note my opinion that a Company who is serious and genuine about surveying groups of teachers or hundreds of teachers will ordinarily prefer to conduct these surveys in writing. This is especially true when the Company is simultaneously engaged in training teachers how to efficiently manage groups of students.

Re: EFL Classroom and Footprints Partnership

EFL Classroom has a history of propping up Footprints http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=138492&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45 In that thread, you claim that Footprints offers "much more than any other recruiter" (reality is a $9/hour job 4 newbies) and that Footprints is picking up the bill for a "teaching practical session."

Quote:

Footprints stepped up and will offer a very teaching practical session. On their bill. Nov. 29th. Find out more on EFL Classroom 2.0. Cheap, day long, teaching skills session. Not any of the dry lecturing blabla stuff we get mostly. See HERE.

Your representations that Footprints picked up the bill is unsupported by the link which shows the actual cost of the session to be $20,000 KRW-$30,000 KRW per teacher. http://api.ning.com/files/gICN1skwaIRsfHZwkYtVHBC2tuqHSLdm3BBdOzSDfKzhKIIf7VEud2cBZ-7vBuWRjCEaz9ytVPkTH-JzstHC-tHrvbH1KRU7/Mailmerge.jpg More accurately, a 33% discount off the $30K won admission fee was given to footprints recruited teachers. I understand that it sounds better for Footprints to say that they "stepped up" and that they are picking up the bill - when in reality it is a money making event for you and Footprints. Wink

Not that there's anything wrong w/making some money but quit making your business ventures appear to be so philanthropic. Rolling Eyes

EDIT: I am adding a note here, not deleting anything. Since I submitted this post, Footprints has denied my above taken position that the event was a "money making event...for Footprints."

My impression that EFL Classroom and Footprints partnered on that project is countered by your denial that you have �nothing to do with Footprints." Do you also deny that you were compensated for and/or involved with the Footprints Teacher Training Workshop that you promoted? I want to personally congratulate EFL Classroom and Footprints on their partnership and wish them both happiness and success in the New Year!

I wish everyone a Happy and Prosperous New Year! Cool

Last edited by mountainous on Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

The Grumpy Senator

Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Location: Up and down the 6 line

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject:

mountainous wrote:

The Grumpy Senator wrote:

How many teachers at the korean hakwon?

25 foreign teachers and 10 Korean. 800-1000 students. Highly successful.

mountainous

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject:

Cool, are you still recruiting teachers referred by Footprints?

The Grumpy Senator

Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Location: Up and down the 6 line

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject:

mountainous wrote:

Cool, are you still recruiting teachers referred by Footprints?

It is my former school. I have moved into a uni position. However, to answer your question, yes they do still use Footprints as their primary recruiter.

crusher_of_heads

Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Location: kimbop and kimchi for kimberly!!!!

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject:

Ben, it takes a lot to look poorly juxtaposed against Andrew. Congratulations on a job well done, and Happy New Year.

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject:

Mountainous,

Me thinks it is definitely you doing the misrepresenting and misinforming. I suggest you quit spinning and stand still enough to listen to others.

Quote:

I have said all over the place that it was MY OWN wish that teachers pay a minimum amount for the workshop. I base that on over 10 years of holding workshops and training teachers. Teachers need to pay something, even a token amount for their professional development. I won't get into the research supported reasons. However, Footprints wanted to charge nothing. I insisted.

That said, there was NO PROFIT. All attendees got free books, free coupons amounting to more than they paid. Footprints paid for the lecture hall, supplied vast amounts of refreshments and food etc.... You look ridiculous with your allegations. Do you have any idea how much it costs to rent a lecture hall footsteps from Gangnam station????? My own fee was a very minimal amount, almost a quarter of what I'd usually receive.

About EFL Classroom 2.0. I've been contacted by probably 14 recruiters. I tell them what I told Footprints. They are free to post up in our classified section/job section. Like any member. No problem. Footprints is only one of two that took the time to do so...go figure. Footprints contacted me about teacher training not because of EFL Classroom 2.0 but because of my qualifications and association with SMOE - an office of education they are an official recruiter of.

I hope you are half a man and take back your egregious allegations and publicly state you were wrong and writing/acting like an idiot. I say this strongly because it isn't a flippant matter to allege/wink people were misleading others, as you suggest. Do the right thing.

DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject:

Quote:

My understanding of EFL Classroom�s survey is that (a) it was conducted orally and (b) it showed a 100% job satisfaction rate among hundreds of EFL teachers in Korea. Please let me know if my understanding of EFL Classroom's survey is incorrect.

Totally incorrect.

Nothing to do with EFL Classroom 2.0. I provide workshops to foreign teachers working for SMOE. Many workshops throughout the year and also at the twice yearly orientation. I meet teachers, I talk to teachers. I get information as it should be garnered, in person and on the ground. I'm much more in the loop on this than you'll ever be.

I NEVER suggested I had done any formal survey. Your understanding, like much else, is totally incorrect.

DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com

WillTurnerinVanCity

Joined: 05 Dec 2007

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: EFL Classroom Survey of Footprints Recruited Teachers

mountainous wrote:

Re: EFL Classroom Survey of Footprints Recruited Teachers

ddeubel wrote:

Further, I've spoken individually and in groups to hundreds of Footprints recruited teachers. I've only gotten good reports. I have no affiliation with them�

ddeubel wrote:

I stand by my own opinion that my survey is much more thorough than a messageboard discussion like the one you refer to.

Quote:

Not that there's anything wrong w/making some money but quit making your business ventures appear to be so philanthropic. Rolling Eyes

My impression that EFL Classroom and Footprints partnered on that project is countered by your denial that you have �nothing to do with Footprints." Do you also deny that you were compensated for and/or involved with the Footprints Teacher Training Workshop that you promoted? I want to personally congratulate EFL Classroom and Footprints on their partnership and wish them both happiness and success in the New Year!

I wish everyone a Happy and Prosperous New Year! Cool

- quite confident we didn't do that teacher training workshop for profit, nor did it turn a profit.

Consider this scenario. Imagine you put together this idea for a seminar, and you reach out to a large group of people to check for interest, and you get a large response. Now you know that most of those people like the idea but probably won't actually attend, so you rent a room, get some food and drinks, get the material and speaker/trainer. Now, you know that there are a fair number of people who have said they were going, but there is no guarantee, so what you do is charge a very small fee that doesn't nearly cover the cost (nor turn a profit) as a means of seeing who is committed compared to all the people who have said they would like it...having them invest a nominal amount of money indicates that they will show up, in the hopes that this will help the event turn out well. It did turn out pretty well by the way, but if you're looking at straight expense/profit I believe we took a big loss on that one.

Now, Mountainous, can you think of a reason why might want to do some philanthropy? Philanthropy and business are not mutually exclusive. By demonstrating what we want to do for our teachers, by showing that we can support them - we hope the teachers see that and appreciate it, and that eventually it does come back to help us be a better company. Trying to throw an event like that for profit would be like cashing in on short term profit at the expense of long term gain, and that gain isn't just dollars and cents, it is goodwill in the ESL community, which-like it or not-we are all a part of.

A good example of this would be Westjet (here in Canada) handing out pizza to people stuck in airport lines at Christmas. It is a cost to Westjet, but it comes back to them in goodwill, and may help them be a better airline in the future. Now...does that make them 100% philanthropic? No....but does it make them assholes with hidden agendas? Not at all.
Everyone knows why they are doing it...but the pizza is good, and it is still nice of them, because they didn't have to step up like that. Other airlines (ahem...AirCanada) did *beep*-all, and their business reputation will suffer.

Business 101!

- incidentally, we also threw a Christmas party at Bella Cita in Busan (unless the name is wrong) and charged 5000 won from what I understand. Turnout was great, the teachers ate steaks and drank wine (which cost more than 5000 won - Footprints grabbed the rest), not to mention booking the room. That was not a for profit venture either.

I have to say, gentlemen, that sometimes...not always...but sometimes, it looks like you are grasping at straws to find a stick to beat us with. Wouldn't you prefer that recruiters did this type of thing? Should we not be encouraged to continue in the hopes that other agencies will follow suit? Would this not make the experience better for everyone involved (including yourselves)? Is the ESL community not in need of some philanthropy?

All this bickering makes it seem like everything is personal, and that it is you with the Agenda and not us the evil recruiters....and it isn't about helping teachers in the slightest. I specifically referred two people to Dave's today - knowing you guys post like you do, just so they could see the other side of things. We're open to criticism, we aren't perfect - but, no offense, you guys take it too far sometimes.

-Will

SeoulShakin

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject:

WillTurnerInVanCity - Go back and read my post on page 4. Regardless of the accusations and how upset you may be at them, Ben completely acted unprofessionally and quite frankly, immaturely in response to the previous posts. Like I said, I had great experiences two years in a row using footprints. But I find it hard to recommend a business whose founder will react in such ways to criticism. You have reacted calmly, and countered accordingly, as one would expect someone to who is defending their business. He, on the other hand, did not, and is not representing footprints in the finest of lights. I know, from my experiences, that I was very pleased with the services Ben provided me, and he was more than helpful to me while organizing my second trip to Korea, but he doesn't come across as helpful or kind in these posts. Perhaps you could pass this along to him, so he doesn't represent himself this way in the future.

esetters21

Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Location: Seoul

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject:

Footprints Recruiting is a business first and foremost. Are they better than other recruiters? Maybe they are or maybe not. I don't know why people harbor such resentment towards this business and can't move on nor why people that have no affiliation with this said business feel the need to defend them. What this thread has turned into is basically not helpful to the op or anyone considering using this business imo.

WillTurnerinVanCity

Joined: 05 Dec 2007

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject:

SeoulShakin wrote:

WillTurnerInVanCity -

Go back and read my post on page 4. Regardless of the accusations and how upset you may be at them, Ben completely acted unprofessionally and quite frankly, immaturely in response to the previous posts.

Like I said, I had great experiences two years in a row using footprints. But I find it hard to recommend a business whose founder will react in such ways to criticism. You have reacted calmly, and countered accordingly, as one would expect someone to who is defending their business. He, on the other hand, did not, and is not representing footprints in the finest of lights.

I know, from my experiences, that I was very pleased with the services Ben provided me, and he was more than helpful to me while organizing my second trip to Korea, but he doesn't come across as helpful or kind in these posts. Perhaps you could pass this along to him, so he doesn't represent himself this way in the future.

- I read them and by the way, I do appreciate what you said about me. Credibility and goodwill are in short supply on Dave's it seems, and I'll take what little I can get.

Ben reads these forums, this one included, so I'm confident your post doesn't need to be brought to his attention by me. As for what Ben posted about, I'm not involved in that, but I will say that Ben isn't fabricating that story. That's my word, and that's all I'm saying.

As for Me...I can't go tit for tat because my manager will most likely ban Dave's from my computer Smile

....which might still happen.

It just frustrates me that a lot of people see only one aspect of this industry, but talk like they know all. We get trashed for allegedly not caring about teachers, yet when we make a stronger effort we get trashed for that, too. If Ben says "we have jobs for good teachers" people get on here and say "ahaaa! you didn't say good jobs, therefore you have none." It is silly after awhile.

-Will

Last edited by WillTurnerinVanCity on Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

WillTurnerinVanCity

Joined: 05 Dec 2007

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject:

esetters21 wrote:

Footprints Recruiting is a business first and foremost. Are they better than other recruiters? Maybe they are or maybe not. I don't know why people harbor such resentment towards this business and can't move on nor why people that have no affiliation with this said business feel the need to defend them. What this thread has turned into is basically not helpful to the op or anyone considering using this business imo.

That was....good...wow.

mountainous

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: Footprints and EFL Classroom Partnership

ddeubel wrote:

Mountainous,

Me thinks it is definitely you doing the misrepresenting and misinforming. I suggest you quit spinning and stand still enough to listen to others.

Quote:

Thanks for the response. If you think that I made a misrepresentation then quote it and tell me why you think it�s a misrepresentation. I�ll fairly consider your case. I made a note in my post above that Footprints denies it made $$$ from the event. I will direct some questions at you and Footprints in an effort to evaluate Footprints� claim that it made no $$$ from the event. For the time being, I have noted the recruiters� denial which I think is perfectly fair.

In your post above, you confirm/admit that you received a fee for services in connection w/the event (�My own fee was a very minimal amount, almost a quarter of what I'd usually receive.�) ergo I accurately represented that you made money from the event.

You tell me that �Footprints paid for the lecture hall� and ask me if I know the cost to rent the lecture hall but you fail to state the cost to rent the lecture hall.

ddeubel wrote:

Footprints paid for the lecture hall, supplied vast amounts of refreshments and food etc.... You look ridiculous with your allegations. Do you have any idea how much it costs to rent a lecture hall footsteps from Gangnam station?????

No, I don't know. How much does it cost to rent the lecture hall?

Heretofore, I have been willing to overlook a potential inconsistency between your statement that Footprints �supplied vast amounts of food and refreshments� and the flyer you linked to which states otherwise: �Only refreshments will be served.� http://api.ning.com/files/gICN1skwaIRsfHZwkYtVHBC2tuqHSLdm3BBdOzSDfKzhKIIf7VEud2cBZ-7vBuWRjCEaz9ytVPkTH-JzstHC-tHrvbH1KRU7/Mailmerge.jpg If in fact Footprints �supplied vast amounts of food and refreshments� despite what the flyer says then that is news to me. Moreover, I have made no misrepresentation in pointing out a potential misrepresentation for your consideration. Was there food served or not? If so, what food was served and what was the approx. cost?

There might be a significant difference in cost between �vast amounts of food� and no food at all, depending on how much $$$ was allegedly spent on food. As to the vast amount of drinks, what types of drinks are we talking about? How many teachers were in attendance and how many of these were footprints recruited teachers? What was the cost of rent? Only if your reader is armed w/this information can he/she make an informed decision as to whether or not the event was a money maker for Footprints. -

The fact that Footprints booked $20-$30K Won per ticket suggests that Footprints attempted to offset its costs or turn a profit. Your representation that �Footprints wanted to charge nothing� is inconsistent with the fact that Footprints actually charged $20K-$30K Won per ticket. My opinion here is that if Footprints really wanted admission to be FREE then Footprints would not have charged $20-$30K Won / ticket. I also have confidence that my position is 100% logical. Very Happy

According to Footprints, they got a pretty good turnout at the event (�It did turn out pretty well by the way��) and so I will be surprised to learn that Footprints Teacher Training Workshop fell substantially short of meeting costs or failed to turn a profit.

ddeubel wrote:

I hope you are half a man and take back your egregious allegations and publicly state you were wrong and writing/acting like an idiot.

If you think that I made a misrepresentation then quote it and tell me why you think it�s a misrepresentation--I�ll fairly consider your case. The same applies to "aggregious allegations" which you claim I made. You are going to have to be very specific as I don't beat around the bush.

In the interim, I note your dissatisfaction with my stated observations, opinions and questions. I hope that you don't use that dissatisfaction as an excuse for refusing to respond to some simple questions. Here are those questions for convenience:

1) How much does it cost to rent the lecture hall?
2)Was there food served or not? If so, what food was served and what was the approx. cost?
3) what types of drinks are we talking about and what was the approx cost?
4) How many teachers were in attendance and how many of these were footprints recruited teachers?

These are basic questions, a response to which may allow a reader to estimate the revenues minus expenses. It's really up to EFL Classroom and Footprints whether or not they want to arm readers w/the information.

Have a great day and a happy new year. Cool

Last edited by mountainous on Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:30 am; edited 1 time in total

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