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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 2:48 pm Post subject: Vietnam ... "The War We Could Have Won?" |
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NY Times
May 1, 2005
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
The War We Could Have Won
By STEPHEN J. MORRIS
Washington
THE Vietnam War is universally regarded as a disaster for what it did to the American and Vietnamese people. However, 30 years after the war's end, the reasons for its outcome remain a matter of dispute.
The most popular explanation among historians and journalists is that the defeat was a result of American policy makers' cold-war-driven misunderstanding of North Vietnam's leaders as dangerous Communists. In truth, they argue, we were fighting a nationalist movement with great popular support. In this view, "our side," South Vietnam, was a creation of foreigners and led by a corrupt urban elite with no popular roots. Hence it could never prevail, not even with a half-million American troops, making the war "unwinnable."
This simple explanation is repudiated by powerful historical evidence, both old and new. Its proponents mistakenly base their conclusions on the situation in Vietnam during the 1950's and early 1960's and ignore the changing course of the war (notably, the increasing success of President Richard Nixon's Vietnamization strategy) and the evolution of South Vietnamese society (in particular the introduction of agrarian reforms).
For all the claims of popular support for the Vietcong insurgency, far more South Vietnamese peasants fought on the side of Saigon than on the side of Hanoi. The Vietcong were basically defeated by the beginning of 1972, which is why the North Vietnamese launched a huge conventional offensive at the end of March that year. During the Easter Offensive of 1972 - at the time the biggest campaign of the war - the South Vietnamese Army was able to hold onto every one of the 44 provincial capitals except Quang Tri, which it regained a few months later. The South Vietnamese relied on American air support during that offensive.
If the United States had provided that level of support in 1975, when South Vietnam collapsed in the face of another North Vietnamese offensive, the outcome might have been at least the same as in 1972. But intense lobbying of Congress by the antiwar movement, especially in the context of the Watergate scandal, helped to drive cutbacks of American aid in 1974. Combined with the impact of the world oil crisis and inflation of 1973-74, the results were devastating for the south. As the triumphant North Vietnamese commander, Gen. Van Tien Dung, wrote later, President Nguyen Van Thieu of South Vietnam was forced to fight "a poor man's war."
Even Hanoi's main patron, the Soviet Union, was convinced that a North Vietnamese military victory was highly unlikely. Evidence from Soviet Communist Party archives suggests that, until 1974, Soviet military intelligence analysts and diplomats never believed that the North Vietnamese would be victorious on the battlefield. Only political and diplomatic efforts could succeed. Moscow thought that the South Vietnamese government was strong enough to defend itself with a continuation of American logistical support. The former Soviet chargé d'affaires in Hanoi during the 1970's told me in Moscow in late 1993 that if one looked at the balance of forces, one could not predict that the South would be defeated. Until 1975, Moscow was not only impressed by American military power and political will, it also clearly had no desire to go to war with the United States over Vietnam. But after 1975, Soviet fear of the United States dissipated.
During the war the Soviets despised their North Vietnamese "friends" (the term of confidential bureaucratic reference, rather than "comrades"). Indeed, Henry A. Kissinger's accounts of his dealings, as Nixon's national security adviser, with President Thieu are models of respect when compared with the bitter Soviet accounts of their difficulties with their counterparts.
In secret internal reports, Hanoi-based Soviet diplomats regularly complained about the deceitfulness of the North Vietnamese, who concealed strategic planning from their more powerful patron. In a 1972 report to Moscow, the Soviet ambassador even complained that although Marshal Pavel Batitsky, commander of the Soviet Air Defense Forces, had visited Hanoi earlier that year and completed a major military aid agreement, North Vietnamese leaders did not inform him of the imminent launch date of their Easter Offensive.
What is also clear from Soviet archival sources is that those who believed that North Vietnam had more than national unification on its mind were right: Its leaders were imbued with a sense of their ideological mission - not only to unify Vietnam under Communist Party rule, but also to support the victory of Communists in other nations. They saw themselves as the outpost of world revolution in Southeast Asia and desired to help Communists in Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and elsewhere.
Soviet archives show that after the war ended in 1975, with American power in retreat, Hanoi used part of its captured American arsenal to support Communist revolutions around the world. In 1980 some of these weapons were shipped via Cuba to El Salvador. This dimension of Vietnamese behavior derived from a deep commitment to the messianic internationalism of Marxist-Leninist ideology.
Vietnam today is not the North Vietnam of 1955, 1965 or 1975. Like post-Mao China it has retreated from totalitarianism to authoritarianism. It has reformed its economy and its foreign policy to become more integrated into the world. But those changes were not inevitable and would not necessarily have occurred had Mikhail Gorbachev not ascended to power in Moscow, and had the Soviet Union and its empire not collapsed. Nor would these changes necessarily have occurred had China not provided a new cultural model for Vietnam to follow, as it has for centuries.
Precisely because Vietnam has changed for the better, we need to recognize what a profoundly ideological and aggressive totalitarian regime we faced three, four and five decades ago. And out of respect for the evidence of history, we need to recognize what happened in the 1970's and why.
In 1974-75, the United States snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Hundreds of thousands of our Vietnamese allies were incarcerated, and more than a million driven into exile. The awesome image of the United States was diminished, and its enemies were thereby emboldened, drawing the United States into new conflicts by proxy in Afghanistan, Africa and Latin America. And the bitterness of so many American war veterans, who saw their sacrifices so casually demeaned and unnecessarily squandered, haunts American society and political life to this day.
Stephen J. Morris, a fellow at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies, is writing a book on the Vietnam War in the Nixon years. |
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desultude

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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What is your take on this, Bobster? I am not sure what the point is of the article (or, at least the point you are making by reprinting it here).
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But intense lobbying of Congress by the antiwar movement, especially in the context of the Watergate scandal, helped to drive cutbacks of American aid in 1974. Combined with the impact of the world oil crisis and inflation of 1973-74, the results were devastating for the south. |
So, is the U.S. facing the same situation in Iraq? As the war goes on and the body bags mount, the popular support will wane. There is an anti-war movement, but the news of it is muted, unlike the sixties and seventies, when it and the war in Vietnam shared almost equal billing on the nightly news. We certainly have an oil crisis. The economy cannot afford to continue to conduct a war in the style to which Iraq has become accostomed.
One interesting thing to me about this article is that it is asserting that the anti-war movement had a big effect on ending the war- that is something that has been denied all along.
There are a lot of ways to take that article. One is to note how reductionist it is- I have never understood the war to be simply a nationalist war. Instead, it was a nationalist war against colonial powers (come on now, does anyone think that the French were so easily forgotten, and that there was not a lot of animus towards foriegn powers?), a war of North against South in a country where the interests and cultures of the North and South have always collided, and a proxie ideological war of communism vs. capitalism where the propaganda machines worked overtime to convince of each sides' rectitude in the face of the other sides' evil.
Could the U.S. have won? It would have been a pyrric victory. The lives lost and destroyed on both sides, and the cost to the American psyche would have been the same, albeit slightly assuaged by a "victory". (Like countless others, my brother would not suddenly be alive again.)
I think the U.S. would have been like the dog that finally catches the car- what would they have done with the disaster that was Vietnam after the war? Reconstruct it the way they did in Afghanistan? Or Guatemala?
I don't think the legacy of the American War in Vietnam turned on who cried uncle first. That would never have erased the 15 or so years of disaster that preceded it on the American side, and the many more years that preceded it on the Vietnamese side. |
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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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desultude wrote: |
What is your take on this, Bobster? I am not sure what the point is of the article (or, at least the point you are making by reprinting it here).
Quote: |
But intense lobbying of Congress by the antiwar movement, especially in the context of the Watergate scandal, helped to drive cutbacks of American aid in 1974. Combined with the impact of the world oil crisis and inflation of 1973-74, the results were devastating for the south. |
So, is the U.S. facing the same situation in Iraq? As the war goes on and the body bags mount, the popular support will wane. There is an anti-war movement, but the news of it is muted, unlike the sixties and seventies, when it and the war in Vietnam shared almost equal billing on the nightly news. |
You zeroed in immediately on the very section of the article that first caught my eye - apologies for not posting an opinion of my own about this, but I was in the middle of coffe and trying to get my language skills working.
Vietnam very quickly became a whirlpool in which the greater amount of lives and energy that got expended, the less likely the hawks in America were willing to consider withdrawal. The writer doesn't menion Iraq anywhere in his article, I believe, but the implication is that parallels are to be found ... and I do think it's true that the longer we stay, and more of soldiers die, the more difficult it will be to declare victory and bring them back. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004 Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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desultude wrote: |
So, is the U.S. facing the same situation in Iraq? As the war goes on and the body bags mount, the popular support will wane. There is an anti-war movement, but the news of it is muted, unlike the sixties and seventies, when it and the war in Vietnam shared almost equal billing on the nightly news. We certainly have an oil crisis. The economy cannot afford to continue to conduct a war in the style to which Iraq has become accostomed.
One interesting thing to me about this article is that it is asserting that the anti-war movement had a big effect on ending the war- that is something that has been denied all along.
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My take on this whole thing is that, and I'm going from memory here, is that the anti-war movement did have an impact. However, the impact was negligible (sp?) until the white middle-class got involved. When the anti-war movement was confined to the "long haired hippies from San Francisco" it was easily marginalized. This marginalization resulted in little substantive reporting at the beginning. However, once the white middle class became involved actively in the movement, its impact, clout, and newsworthiness, if you will, became greater. With the newsworthiness it became acceptable for older, middle class white to be involved without being viewed as traitors. I do believe ultimately the anti-war movement became a factor in the withdrawal of substantial involvement by the U.S. in the Vietnam conflict.
As far as comparing the Vietnam scenario to the Iraqi scenario, in my opinion, it doesn't work. The main reason is that in Vietnam we didn't have a Vietnam to look back on. We didn't have the lessons learned to draw upon. In Iraq, as soon as the first insurgent attacks were reported, the spectre of Vietnam was raised. This could not be done in Vietnam. I doubt we'll see the same type of intense very long term involvement as we did in Vietnam. I think there is a desire in the halls of power to get the heck out of Iraq, but no clear consensus as to how. But who knows, really? All we minions are left with is conjecture.
Well, darn, got to get to work. I'll try to get back to this later.
Take care.
Teufelswacht |
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ulsanchris
Joined: 19 Jun 2003 Location: take a wild guess
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Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:02 am Post subject: |
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As my one american history prof kept telling my class, "the Us only did enough to not lose the war. They never did enough to win the war. |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 11:22 am Post subject: |
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Bobster,
You know at least one guy who was there? |
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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Teufelswacht wrote: |
My take on this whole thing is that, and I'm going from memory here, is that the anti-war movement did have an impact. However, the impact was negligible (sp?) until the white middle-class got involved. When the anti-war movement was confined to the "long haired hippies from San Francisco" it was easily marginalized. This marginalization resulted in little substantive reporting at the beginning. However, once the white middle class became involved actively in the movement, its impact, clout, and newsworthiness, if you will, became greater. With the newsworthiness it became acceptable for older, middle class white to be involved without being viewed as traitors. I do believe ultimately the anti-war movement became a factor in the withdrawal of substantial involvement by the U.S. in the Vietnam conflict. |
It's been said that the watershed mark in the tide of US opinion was sometime not long after the shootings of the young protesters at Kent Sate Univ by National Guardsmen - the image of American military men shooting down the children of the American Heartland for their opposition to carnage half a world away - and that it was marked by the moment when the American broadcaster Walter Cronhite, anchor of the nitely CBS News program, came out publicly anti in one of his short opinion-pieces. He used to end each day's visit into American homes with the tag-line, "And that's the way it is" - and unlike today, people back then believed that what this man told them was not just The Offical Line or one aspect of truth among a host of competing viewpoints, but rather exact, unvarnished, objective reality ...
Whether the antiwar movement had an effect on extracting our soldiers from Vietnam - I tend to believe it, myself - there is a lot of evidence that people in the highest branches of power were afraid of the complete unraveling oif society from the ground up.
Quote: |
As far as comparing the Vietnam scenario to the Iraqi scenario, in my opinion, it doesn't work. The main reason is that in Vietnam we didn't have a Vietnam to look back on. We didn't have the lessons learned to draw upon. In Iraq, as soon as the first insurgent attacks were reported, the spectre of Vietnam was raised. This could not be done in Vietnam. I doubt we'll see the same type of intense very long term involvement as we did in Vietnam. I think there is a desire in the halls of power to get the heck out of Iraq, but no clear consensus as to how. But who knows, really? All we minions are left with is conjecture. |
The part of your post I put in bold is actually the single salient point of comparison with Vietnam - and very large part of both the right and the left (well, all of the left) wanted out but were unsure of how to do it.
Your point about the lessons learned in "Nam reminds me of the old adage about generals always fighting the next war according to the strategies and tactics learned in the last war ... begs the question, what will the "lessons learned" be in the NEXT war?
jajdude :
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Bobster,
You know at least one guy who was there? |
Why the question mark, jaj? We both know that guy, though the one we're both thinking of was not a soldier ... and most people reading this, especially Americans, have likely met him or some other guy like him.
Vietnam was, I believe, the first war in American history where a lot of the vets who returned became politically active in opposing it ... "lessons learned," indeed. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004 Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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The Bobster wrote: |
...
Your point about the lessons learned in "Nam reminds me of the old adage about generals always fighting the next war according to the strategies and tactics learned in the last war ... begs the question, what will the "lessons learned" be in the NEXT war?
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Well, there are lessons learned at the tactical, operational and strategic levels. IMHO there will be valuable lessons learned at all levels. Some lessons learned will help save the lives of U.S. soldiers in the future. Others will save the lives of noncombatants. Some may include refutation of the belief that technology alone can replace "boots on the ground" in a conflict. I hope the biggest lesson learned is the confirmation of the old phrase "Assumption is the mother of all f**k-ups.
Take care
Teufelswacht |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:23 am Post subject: |
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The Bobster wrote: |
jajdude :
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Bobster,
You know at least one guy who was there? |
Why the question mark, jaj? We both know that guy, though the one . |
Oh yeah, almost forgot about that guy. I meant, you know others? |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Interesting question. Had anybody other than LBJ and McNamara been running the show, maybe. Anybody who followed what was going on with the way the air war over NV was being conducted would se that LBJ was totally incompetent when it came to the application of airpower. Had Rolling Thunder been carried out properly, as Linebacker 2 was, the results in VN would have been different. |
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Hank Scorpio

Joined: 18 Jan 2003 Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 6:12 am Post subject: |
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W.T.Carl wrote: |
Interesting question. Had anybody other than LBJ and McNamara been running the show, maybe. Anybody who followed what was going on with the way the air war over NV was being conducted would se that LBJ was totally incompetent when it came to the application of airpower. Had Rolling Thunder been carried out properly, as Linebacker 2 was, the results in VN would have been different. |
Nixon wasn't blameless either. Oh, sure, he resumed bombing the Ho Chi Minh trail, but I think it was a mistake not to take the war to Hanoi. Merely interdicting the enemy and hitting them in transit isn't enough, you need to hit them at home and deny them a safe haven, which we never did. Of course, at that point we didn't have the spectre of Vietnam over us, we had the spectre of Korea. Personally, I think the risk of widening the war would have been worth it. The only reason that Korea spiraled out of control as badly as it did was because of the incompetence of MacArthur. Once he got relieved and Ridgeway (one of my top 10 greatest military commanders ever) got into command and started cleaning up his messes things improved immensely.
Even for MacArthur's subpar generalship (the only thing he was great at was glory seeking), we would have been fine had he not decided to bite off more than he was mandated. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Monday morning quarterbacking of past wars is useless. It is nothing more than salving the ego. It is impossible to know what strategy might have worked because it wasn't tried in that time and place with that enemy. And no one knows what strategy the enemy might have chosen to combat a different strategy.
One lesson learned was that China meant it when it said it would not tolerate certain behaviors by the Americans. They demonstrated that in November of 1950. That lesson put constraints on what could be done in North Vietnam. Political reality sometimes bites.
Colin Powell said the lesson to be learned was that the US should never again go to war without first getting support from the American people and political support from both parties. Then have specific objectives that the military could achieve. Finally, have an exit strategy. He was largely ignored by Bush in Iraq.
The anti-war movement had enormous impact. If you remember, when American involvement was still small Johnson ran as an anti-war candidate in '64: "I will not send American boys to fight Asian wars" (or something very similar)--and then exponentially expanded America's role. Four years later the anti-war movement was in the streets (from '67 really) and both Humphrey and Nixon ran as anti-war candidates. Then Nixon expanded the war even more.
If you remember, most of the 450 universities and colleges in the country closed down and sent the students home in the spring of '70--no final exams that year--after the students were killed at Kent State and Jackson State. |
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Hank Scorpio

Joined: 18 Jan 2003 Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Monday morning quarterbacking of past wars is useless. It is nothing more than salving the ego. |
Then what you're saying is that the study of history is useless ego salving, because that's almost entirely what history consists of. It's the study of causalities, counter-factuals, "what if's?", etc.
Thinking about why something happened the way it did, and the possible repercussions of having taken a different tack is pretty far from useless, IMO. |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:26 am Post subject: |
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After 1968, the war was lost. Nixon was only looking for a way to get out without a total defeat. Had common sense ROEs been in place in '65 as opposed to LBJ's "sending a message" type, the NVs would have had no choice but to quit the effort. Even after TET '68, there was a chance. Had a "Linebacker 2" taken place, things maybe would have been different. There has NEVER been a more criminal misuse of the military than occured under LBJ and McNamara. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
It's the study of causalities, counter-factuals, "what if's?", etc.
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You're only 33.3% right. It certainly is about causes and outcomes. Anything else is not history. Predictions, wishful thinking, might-have-beens, etc. are just parlor games. They may be fun but don't classify them under history. |
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