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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:47 am Post subject: WHY NO ARAB DEMOCRACIES? The Arab League Responds |
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Today on "Inside the Middle East," a weekly program on CNN International hosted by Syrian American journalist Hala Gorani, it was finally revealed just why it is that there are no real democracies in the Arab world.
In response to a pointed question by Gorani, who is fluent in Arabic, Amr Moussa, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, replied that indeed it was a disappointment that not even Egypt had a full-fledged democracy. Actually, neither do any of the other members of the League.
And the reason for this, according to the Honorable Mr. Moussa is that the Middle East has been in too much turmoil. The need of the Arabs to constantly combat Israel is stirring the pot and preventing governments in the region from cleaning their own houses.
So there you have it: Israel is to blame.
He pronounced this, incidentally, with a straight face and a rather solemn expression.
So what say you: Is Israel really to blame for the dearth of democracy among Muslim states or is it being scapegoated?
Or if you prefer: Are the Arab leaders a pack of losers or do Arab leaders simply delight in despotism?
Inquiring minds want to know. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:01 am Post subject: |
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Your premise is wrong. Gaza is a democracy with Hamas as its democratically elected government.
And do not lose sight of the fact that Israel is NOT a democracy. Civil liberty, due process and the most basic human rights are by law denied those who do not meet racial, religious criteria. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Your premise is wrong. Gaza is a democracy with Hamas as its democratically elected government.
And do not lose sight of the fact that Israel is NOT a democracy. Civil liberty, due process and the most basic human rights are by law denied those who do not meet racial, religious criteria. |
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Arab citizens of Israel
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Arab citizens of Israel
عرب إسرائيل (العرب الإسرائيليون)
ערבים אזרחי ישראל
Emile Habibi � Ahmed Tibi
Total population
1,144,000 plus
270,000 in East Jerusalem
and the Golan Heights (2006)
19.7% of Israeli population[1]
Regions with significant populations
Israel
Languages
Arabic and Hebrew
Religion
Islam 83% (mostly Sunni), Christianity 8.5% and Druzism 8.3%[1]
Arab citizens of Israel[2] refers to Arabs or Arabic-speaking people who are citizens of Israel who are not Jewish.[3][4] Arab citizens of Israel are often called Arab Israelis or Israeli Arabs, a term with which some identify but the majority reject. (See notes on terminology below.)
Arab citizens comprise almost 20% of the population of Israel. The majority identify themselves as Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5] There is research that supports that the overwhelming majority of Arab citizens of Israel would choose to remain Israeli citizens rather than become citizens of a future Palestinian state.[6][7][8] Many Arab citizens hold a range of ties, including family ties, to Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. There has been relatively greater emphasis on Israeli identity among the Bedouin[9] and Druze, with all of the Druze drafted into compulsory military service[10][11] and a dwindling number of Bedouin volunteering.[12]
Special cases are Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied and administered by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967. The residents of East Jerusalem became permanent residents of Israel shortly after the war. Although they hold Israeli ID cards, only a few of them applied for Israeli citizenship, to which they are entitled, and most of them keep close ties with the West Bank.[13] However, as permanent residents, they are entitled to vote for Jerusalem municipal elections, although a low percentage does so. The mostly Druze residents of the Golan Heights are considered permanent residents under the Golan Heights Law of 1981. Few of them have accepted full Israeli citizenship, and the vast majority consider themselves to be citizens of Syria.[14] |
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Legal status in Israeli law
Israel's Declaration of Independence called for the establishment of a Jewish state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race or sex.[101]
The rights of citizens are guaranteed by a set of Basic Laws (Israel does not have a written constitution).[102] Although this set of laws does not explicitly include the term "right to equality", the Israeli Supreme Court has consistently interpreted "Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty"[103] and "Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (1994)"[104] as guaranteeing equal rights for all Israeli citizens.[105]
The website for the Israeli government's Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)." [106] Druze and Circassians are drafted into the Israeli army, while other Arabs may serve voluntarily; however, only a very small number of Arabs choose to volunteer for the Israeli army. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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bacasper imagined:
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| Your premise is wrong. Gaza is a democracy with Hamas as its democratically elected government. |
If you think Hamas tolerates political dissent than you must be smoking something else in your pipe.
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| And do not lose sight of the fact that Israel is NOT a democracy. Civil liberty, due process and the most basic human rights are by law denied those who do not meet racial, religious criteria. |
Good grief. Arabs living in Israel have more opportunities than in Arab states, or hadn't you noticed? (That's a rhetorical question)
RJjr:
Today, Hala Gorani interviewed the founder of Aramex, a private courier company similar to FedEx that operates in the Gulf States. He is Arab himself and he said that:
1) the bureaucrats in the Arab world are largely incompetent and obtained their positions through corrupt patronage
2) the Arab League silences dissent, even trying to stymie it in the more enlightened Gulf States, and basically keeps small-minded tyrants in power.
3) the Arab world has limited resources other than oil and does not do enough to share them across borders or encourage an adequate amount of entrepreneurship in the region.
He also said he is "sick and tired" of Israel being blamed for these woes. And he said it with disgust on his face and vehemence in his voice.
Now how do you or other Arab apologists respond to these charges? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Not to nitpick, but Aramex is actually a Jordanian company. It is one of the few bright spots from one of the NON-gulf arab states.
And no one can really defend any of the Arab states, except Lebanon. It is somewhat democratic, and probably would be more democratic if countries around it didn't use it as a battleground to settle disputes between each other (such as PLO-Israel, Syria-israel, Iran-Israel, Iran-Saudi, etc etc). |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
bacasper imagined:
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| Your premise is wrong. Gaza is a democracy with Hamas as its democratically elected government. |
If you think Hamas tolerates political dissent than you must be smoking something else in your pipe.
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| And do not lose sight of the fact that Israel is NOT a democracy. Civil liberty, due process and the most basic human rights are by law denied those who do not meet racial, religious criteria. |
Good grief. Arabs living in Israel have more opportunities than in Arab states, or hadn't you noticed? (That's a rhetorical question) |
Two nonsequiturs. Nice. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Democracy is not an end in itself, and is largely worthless if it produces regimes which do not guarantee basic human rights for minorities and women (i.e Hamas). This is why the whole American adventure in the Middle East is so misguided; the mistaken idea that bringing democracy to the region will usher in liberal, tolerant regimes where rights for all are guaranteed. As long as Islam remains a powerful force in Muslim nations, they are likely to remain illiberal, intolerant states, prone to despotism and oppression. |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:05 am Post subject: |
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If you want democracy in the Middle East, stop funding the dictators.
No money, no power- Simple as that. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| Now how do you or other Arab apologists respond to these charges? |
George W. Bush's Secretary of State is the one sitting with an Arab leader, not me. I don't even vote Republican or Democratic. Do you? If so, then you're partially responsible for our tax dollars going to the very Arab leaders you whine about.
As for me, I'm pissed off that my tax dollars and those of other Americans get taken from us under threat of prison time if we don't pay up just so some foreign leaders can stay in their palaces when many Americans can't even afford to stay in their own homes. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| agentX wrote: |
If you want democracy in the Middle East, stop funding the dictators.
No money, no power- Simple as that. |
Exactly. It's mind-boggling that some people vote for people who give those foreign governments so much of our money, then whine about the foreign governments staying in power, then continue to elect even more bureaucrats who give the foreign governments even more of our money...when we're trillions of dollars in debt!
As the saying goes: A fool and his money are soon parted. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| agentX wrote: |
If you want democracy in the Middle East, stop funding the dictators.
No money, no power- Simple as that. |
You're assuming that the natural state of things (a ME without meddling) will be democratic. Do you have any evidence for this? Liberal democracy took a damn long time to develop in Europe and required a really messy journey. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| The reason the US funds and supports people like Mubarak and the Al Sauds is because the alternative is probably much worse. Despots are not likely to be replaced by liberal democracy but by anti-Western Jihad loving theocracy. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Your premise is wrong. Gaza is a democracy with Hamas as its democratically elected government.
And do not lose sight of the fact that Israel is NOT a democracy. Civil liberty, due process and the most basic human rights are by law denied those who do not meet racial, religious criteria. |
By those criteria Gaza is NOT a democracy either. Civil liberty, due process and respecting the most basic human rights are not practises that Hamas uses. |
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