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| Should staff in live birth abortions be charged with a criminal act? |
| a) Yes, if they knowingly participated. |
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28% |
[ 4 ] |
| b) Yes, but only the doctor who directs the clinic. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| c) Yes, both the doctor and attending nurse(s). |
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7% |
[ 1 ] |
| d) Yes, all involved including the consenting mother. |
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50% |
[ 7 ] |
| e) No, it's not a criminal act. |
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14% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 14 |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: POLL: Are those involved in live birth abortions murderers? |
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This horrific story just off the wires:
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02/05/09
Florida doctor investigated in badly botched abortionBy CHRISTINE ARMARIO
Associated Press Writer
Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.
Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.
Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.
What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.
Police recovered the decomposing remains in a cardboard box a week later after getting anonymous tips.
"I don't care what your politics are, what your morals are, this should not be happening in our community," said Tom Pennekamp, a Miami attorney representing Williams in her lawsuit against Renelique (ren-uh-LEEK') and the clinic owners.
The state Board of Medicine is to hear Renelique's case in Tampa on Friday and determine whether to strip his license. The state attorney's homicide division is investigating, though no charges have been filed. Terry Chavez, a spokeswoman with the Miami-Dade County State Attorney's Office, said this week that prosecutors were nearing a decision.
Renelique's attorney, Joseph Harrison, called the allegations at best "misguided and incomplete" in an e-mail to The Associated Press. He didn't provide details.
The case has riled the anti-abortion community, which contends the clinic's actions constitute murder.
"The baby was just treated as a piece of garbage," said Tom Brejcha, president of The Thomas More Society, a law firm that is also representing Williams. "People all over the country are just aghast."
Even those who support abortion rights are concerned about the allegations.
"It really disturbed me," said Joanne Sterner, president of the Broward County chapter of the National Organization for Women, after reviewing the administrative complaint against Renelique. "I know that there are clinics out there like this. And I hope that we can keep (women) from going to these types of clinics."
According to state records, Renelique received his medical training at the State University of Haiti. In 1991, he completed a four-year residency in obstetrics and gynecology at Interfaith Medical Center in New York.
New York records show that Renelique has made at least five medical malpractice payments in the past decade, the circumstances of which were not detailed in the filings.
Several attempts to reach Renelique were unsuccessful. Some of his office numbers were disconnected, no home number could be found and he did not return messages left with his attorney.
Williams struggled with the decision to have an abortion, Pennekamp said. She declined an interview request made through him.
She concluded she didn't have the resources or maturity to raise a child, he said, and went to the Miramar Women's Center on July 17, 2006. Sonograms indicated she was 23 weeks pregnant, according to the Department of Health. She met Renelique at a second clinic two days later.
Renelique gave Williams laminaria, a drug that dilates the cervix, and prescribed three other medications, according to the administrative complaint filed by the Health Department. She was told to go to yet another clinic, A Gyn Diagnostic Center in Hialeah, where the procedure would be performed the next day, on July 20, 2006.
Williams arrived in the morning and was given more medication.
The Department of Health account continues as follows: Just before noon she began to feel ill. The clinic contacted Renelique. Two hours later, he still hadn't shown up. Williams went into labor and delivered the baby.
"She came face to face with a human being," Pennekamp said. "And that changed everything."
The complaint says one of the clinic owners, Belkis Gonzalez came in and cut the umbilical cord with scissors, then placed the baby in a plastic bag, and the bag in a trash can.
Williams' lawsuit offers a cruder account: She says Gonzalez knocked the baby off the recliner chair where she had given birth, onto the floor. The baby's umbilical cord was not clamped, allowing her to bleed out. Gonzalez scooped the baby, placenta and afterbirth into a red plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.
No working telephone number could be found for Gonzalez, and an attorney who has represented the clinic in the past did not return a message.
At 23 weeks, an otherwise healthy fetus would have a slim but legitimate chance of survival. Quadruplets born at 23 weeks last year at The Nebraska Medical Center survived.
An autopsy determined Williams' baby - she named her Shanice - had filled her lungs with air, meaning she had been born alive, according to the Department of Health. The cause of death was listed as extreme prematurity.
The Department of Health believes Renelique committed malpractice by failing to ensure that licensed personnel would be present when Williams was there, among other missteps.
The department wants the Board of Medicine, a separate agency, to permanently revoke Renelique's license, among other penalties. His license is currently restricted, permitting him to only perform abortions when another licensed physician is present and can review his medical records.
Should prosecutors file murder charges, they'd have to prove the baby was born alive, said Robert Batey, a professor of criminal law at Stetson University College of Law in Gulfport. The defense might contend that the child would have died anyway, but most courts would not allow that argument, he said.
"Hastening the death of an individual who is terminally ill is still considered causing the death of that individual," Batey said. "And I think a court would rule similarly in this type of case." |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Unbelievable. I sometimes hate this world. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Is this the same case where the baby was thrown on the roof to die? Also was in Fl, I think. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:56 am Post subject: |
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No, this baby was more "fortunate." It was dropped on the floor, picked up by its umbilical cord and stuffed into a bioplastic bag and disposed.
Notice how none of the usual suspects of leftists have posted here. They're always so quick to lament the downtrodden in the world but evidently newborn babies aren't a priority concern.
This country began to really lose its moral compass with Roe vs. Wade. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Horrible.
I still think women should have the right to an abortion in some circumstances, but certainly NOT AFTER the baby has been born. I don't know where the line should be, but it was definitely crossed here.
Still, you have to admit, this is not a typical case of abortion. It is well known the right to lifers love to parade these cases for shock value and present them as common to further the political agenda. They can't get Roe v. Wade erased in one swoop, so they do it little by little. But I agree with them in this instance. Procedures like this shouldn't be allowed and should carry legal repercussions. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: |
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My impression is that the legal standing of newborns has always been kind of a gray area. For example...
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England and Wales
The Infanticide Act 1922 effectively abolished the death penalty for a woman who deliberately killed her new born child while the balance of her mind was disturbed as a result of giving birth, by providing a partial defence to murder. The sentence that applies (as in other partial defences to murder) is the same as that for manslaughter.
The Infanticide Act 1938 extended this defence to cases where "at the time of the act or omission the balance of her mind was disturbed by reason of her not having fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child or by reason of the effect of lactation consequent upon the birth of the child."[1]
Before the partial murder defence of diminished responsibility was introduced to UK law in the Homicide Act 1957, this provided an important means of selecting a more appropriate sentence for a mother found guilty of killing her infant than the mandatory life sentence or death sentence applying to murder at the time.
In recent years it has become very rare for a mother who kills her infant child to receive a custodial sentence, save in very exceptional circumstances.
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Now granted, to some extent, this seems to be basically a variation of the insanity defense. But I don't think a woman would be treated with such mandated leniency if she killed someone other than her own infant, even if the killing could be attributed to post-partum mental illness. The idea seems to be that since the victim is a) the child of the perpetrator, and b) below a certain age, something milder than the full force of legal punishment is warranted.
And in Canada, I'm pretty sure I've heard of women who have killed their babies, and been charged with the crime of infanticide, as opposed to murder. Of course, this does not relate directly to the case in the OP, since the doctor and nurse were not the parents of the child. My point is just that there is well-established precedent for the law recognizing infants below a certain age as a somewhat distinct category from other people.
http://tinyurl.com/adjyfq |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| I'm confused between the title of this thread, the title of the poll, and whether the OP believes the story is common practice or that this is how late term abortions are carried out, and that current laws aren't already in place to punish the doctor, and that this means Roe vs Wade should be overturned(takes a breath). Some have linked the drop in crime to abortions in the 1970/80s anyway. I am also worried because I saw some leftists hanging around outside the OP's apartment making bombs and saying stuff about viet vets being baby killers. |
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crazy_arcade
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
No, this baby was more "fortunate." It was dropped on the floor, picked up by its umbilical cord and stuffed into a bioplastic bag and disposed.
Notice how none of the usual suspects of leftists have posted here. They're always so quick to lament the downtrodden in the world but evidently newborn babies aren't a priority concern.
This country began to really lose its moral compass with Roe vs. Wade. |
What exactly is wrong with you?
You're just another example of a shi$$y hypocritical excuse of a human being. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Society has really lost track by having to even debate the legality and even morality in this issue. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
This country began to really lose its moral compass with Roe vs. Wade. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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This is NOT an abortion. It's not even a partial birth abortion.
This is murder.
This is just a story that certain elements of society will latch on to because they don't understand/appreciate/know what an abortion is.
The baby was FULLY BORN and its lungs had filled with air. She was viable and outside of the mother. It's not an abortion. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
This country began to really lose its moral compass with Roe vs. Wade. |
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And it's not as if abortion is just something that the hippies invented in the late 60s. It had been practiced by westerners for quite some time long long before Roe V. Wade was decided. Though I think it was generally more available to people from the upper classes.
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Two years ago, Zeitgeist Films released Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater, a documentary produced and narrated by C.C. Goldwater, the senator's granddaughter. In it, Joanne Goldwater tells the story:
I was getting engaged. ... It was actually in the Christmas of 1955. And in January, I�I found out that I was pregnant. And I had planned�I had planned this engagement party and a wedding. And�we had�we had planned to have children. We both were still in school. I was getting my degree. And I�I wasn't ready to have a child. And I got an abortion. ... And this was when it was just totally forbidden and very, very dangerous. And young girls were dying by trying it themselves. My father, being conservative, he felt that the government should not decide what women do with their bodies or anything else, you know. The government should stay out of all that. My mother started Planned Parenthood in Arizona in the '30s. And that's why I felt that it was easy to go to them and tell them. And they were very, very supportive.
Why didn't Joanne Goldwater get the Bristol Palin treatment in 1964? Because nobody knew she'd been pregnant. And the reason they didn't know is that she and her parents got rid of the problem.
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It might be the case that Roe V. Wade basically just democratized the availability of the procedure.
http://tinyurl.com/4rufpg |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:41 am Post subject: |
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who is the retard who said NO!!??
the blood is on the hands of all them!! |
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trish91198
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Location: Jukjeon
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Why has no one mentioned the fact that this girl was getting an abortion at 23 weeks?!?!?!? You decide an abortion is the right choice after carrying a baby for almost 6 months? Most abortions are done during the 1st trimester, not at the end of the 2nd! I am all for a woman's right to choose, but this woman chose to do this way too late. I cannot believe a doctor would support this!
Sadly, this girl realized her mistake too late, and her child was murdered. The woman who did this is a sick monster. It's people like that who give others negative opinions about abortion and a woman's right to choose. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| trish91198 wrote: |
Why has no one mentioned the fact that this girl was getting an abortion at 23 weeks?!?!?!? You decide an abortion is the right choice after carrying a baby for almost 6 months? Most abortions are done during the 1st trimester, not at the end of the 2nd! I am all for a woman's right to choose, but this woman chose to do this way too late. I cannot believe a doctor would support this!
Sadly, this girl realized her mistake too late, and her child was murdered. The woman who did this is a sick monster. It's people like that who give others negative opinions about abortion and a woman's right to choose. |
I was thinking this too. Aren't there laws against having an abortion this late in the pregnancy? |
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