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Been There, Taught That
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Mungyeong: not a village, not yet a metroplex.
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 Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:23 pm Post subject: Are Native Speaking Really Just Lucky? |
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I don't know if anyone has already posted this, but this is from the K-Times, Dec 28, 2008, as you can see. Just two short quotes appear below.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/12/117_36881.html
| Quote: |
12-28-2008 18:05
Non-Natives Can Become English Teachers
By Kang Shin-who
Staff Reporter
Non-native English speakers from India and other countries that use English as an official language will be able to teach at public schools from next year [2009]. . .
English education experts are positive about the plan. ``This word `native speaker' is an invention there's no reason why we should consider someone lucky enough to hold a passport from a country using English as a first language country to be a better speaker than someone from a land where English is used less prominently. I know many Filipinos and Indians who speak English more comfortably than some people who were born in the U.S.,'' said Rob Dickey, an American English professor. |
Personally, I can't believe a word of this expert testimonial. No One I know speaks English with more direct knowledge of it than a native speaker, and no one around me more comfortably than me. Are we really just 'lucky enough' to be able to be native speaker, and to whom do we our debts pay, toward whom do we our prayers pray to acknowledge this gift? No one on earth, I suspect. I consider myself lucky to be alive, to have been born where I was, to be a lot of things, it's true, but it's not a contest. You're a native speaker or you aren't. That can't be replaced, no matter what language you are speaking. If it could, Korea could train its own to speak and teach fluently the English language. They've been at it enough years now, haven't they? |
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dharma bum
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.asiatefl.org/newsnet/articles/contributors.html
Rob Dickey (NewsNET Managing Editor)
Assistant Professor of English, Gyeongju University School of Foreign Languages & Tourism. Rob holds a Juris Doctor (Law) and a Master of Public Administration, which may help account for his research preference of Content-based Instruction. He has been an editor for numerous ELT-related publications, both print and online.
english education expert? not really... 
Last edited by dharma bum on Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:33 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Tobias
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:31 pm Post subject: America the land of the milk and money |
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| To many in the world, an Indian's or Filipino's English ability isn't 'good enough', meaning he or she can't be understood as well by those in the world who have fat wallets and buy all the consumables. Those with the fat wallets, on average, are from the 'Big Five'. Being able to communicate with these cats is what matters. Call it 'dialect dictatorship'. |
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TeeBee
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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"Dialect dictatorship"
Now that's a useful phrase. Thanks Tobias. |
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jinks
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Location: Formerly: Lower North Island
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: Are Native Speaking Really Just Luck |
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| Been There, Taught That wrote: |
I don't know if anyone has already posted this, but this is from the K-Times, Dec 28, 2008, as you can see. Just two short quotes appear below.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/12/117_36881.html
| Quote: |
12-28-2008 18:05
Non-Natives Can Become English Teachers
By Kang Shin-who
Staff Reporter
Non-native English speakers from India and other countries that use English as an official language will be able to teach at public schools from next year [2009]. . .
English education experts are positive about the plan. ``This word `native speaker' is an invention there's no reason why we should consider someone lucky enough to hold a passport from a country using English as a first language country to be a better speaker than someone from a land where English is used less prominently. I know many Filipinos and Indians who speak English more comfortably than some people who were born in the U.S.,'' said Rob Dickey, an American English professor. |
Personally, I can't believe a word of this expert testimonial. No One I know speaks English with more direct knowledge of it than a native speaker, and no one around me more comfortably than me. Are we really just 'lucky enough' to be able to be native speaker, and to whom do we our debts pay, toward whom do we our prayers pray to acknowledge this gift. No one on earth, I suspect. I consider myself lucky to be alive, to have been born where I was, to be a lot of things, it's true, but it's not a contest. You're a naqtive speaker or you aren't. That can't be replaced, no matter what language you are speaking. If it could, Korea could train its own to speak and teach fluently the English language. They've been at it enough years now, haven't they? |
True enough; however, being a US/UK/SA/CA etc. passport - holder does not necessarily make you a native speaker of English. So there is actually a loophole for proficient, but not first language speakers, to teach English in Korea already. They are the lucky ones! I don't see why English teachers from Philippines or India would be any less qualified than non-teacher native English-speakers. English teachers from northern European countries like Sweden and Netherlands would be cool, too.
Every one is a native speaker of something, but not everyone is a teacher. |
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asams
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Are Native Speaking Really Just Luck |
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| jinks wrote: |
True enough; however, being a US/UK/SA/CA etc. passport - holder does not necessarily make you a native speaker of English. So there is actually a loophole for proficient, but not first language speakers, to teach English in Korea already. They are the lucky ones! I don't see why English teachers from Philippines or India would be any less qualified than non-teacher native English-speakers. English teachers from northern European countries like Sweden and Netherlands would be cool, too.
Every one is a native speaker of something, but not everyone is a teacher. |
True, not everyone is a teacher, but I think what Koreans are looking for is someone who Ss can listen to and mimick, not someone to teach grammar and such. Koreans could teach English grammar to each other in their native language. They could continue placing vowel sounds where they have no business being and pronouncing "B" as "bvuie" but that would do them no good when trying to deal with speakers of the Big 5 English speaking countries... They don't want us to teach the English language, they want us to teach how to speak the English language - there's a difference.
When I first arrived I was told by the trainer not to teach grammar in my class because I didn't know it but the Korean teachers did, and that basically we were just there for the kids to listen to. I wanted to punch that woman |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Are Native Speaking Really Just Lucky? |
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| Been There, Taught That wrote: |
Personally, I can't believe a word of this expert testimonial. No One I know speaks English with more direct knowledge of it than a native speaker, and no one around me more comfortably than me. Are we really just 'lucky enough' to be able to be native speaker, and to whom do we our debts pay, toward whom do we our prayers pray to acknowledge this gift? No one on earth, I suspect. I consider myself lucky to be alive, to have been born where I was, to be a lot of things, it's true, but it's not a contest. You're a native speaker or you aren't. That can't be replaced, no matter what language you are speaking. If it could, Korea could train its own to speak and teach fluently the English language. They've been at it enough years now, haven't they? |
You can't believe it because you don't want to. I wonder how many people outside of the so called native English speaking countries teach their children English WITHOUT so called native speakers?
I spent about 10 years studying English without a single native speaker, and I can honestly say that the only way you can hear a difference is in my "German" accent.
I can easily find 100 competent people who are not native English speakers but are more than capable to teach English at any level. And for 70% of the money too, if not less. |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: Are Native Speaking Really Just Lucky? |
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[quote="Juregen"]
| Been There, Taught That wrote: |
I can easily find 100 competent people who are not native English speakers but are more than capable to teach English at any level. And for 70% of the money too, if not less. |
Oh, I agree. But herein lies the problem for Korea:
1. The won is not worth that much anymore, and despite the rest of the world being in the dumps economically, people aren't exactly flying here in droves. They want to stay near home -- not drop coin on everything and run to a hagwon job in a strange land with a reputation for screwing foreigners out of pay.
2. Korean mothers demand a certain type of person. We all know this.
I figure wanting non-native English speakers is about 10% about wanting to culturalize Korean students, and 90% about wating to pay less for teachers. |
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jinks
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Location: Formerly: Lower North Island
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: Are Native Speaking Really Just Luck |
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| asams wrote: |
| jinks wrote: |
True enough; however, being a US/UK/SA/CA etc. passport - holder does not necessarily make you a native speaker of English. So there is actually a loophole for proficient, but not first language speakers, to teach English in Korea already. They are the lucky ones! I don't see why English teachers from Philippines or India would be any less qualified than non-teacher native English-speakers. English teachers from northern European countries like Sweden and Netherlands would be cool, too.
Every one is a native speaker of something, but not everyone is a teacher. |
True, not everyone is a teacher, but I think what Koreans are looking for is someone who Ss can listen to and mimick, not someone to teach grammar and such. Koreans could teach English grammar to each other in their native language. They could continue placing vowel sounds where they have no business being and pronouncing "B" as "bvuie" but that would do them no good when trying to deal with speakers of the Big 5 English speaking countries... They don't want us to teach the English language, they want us to teach how to speak the English language - there's a difference.
When I first arrived I was told by the trainer not to teach grammar in my class because I didn't know it but the Korean teachers did, and that basically we were just there for the kids to listen to. I wanted to punch that woman |
You're not wrong about Korea's preference for native speaker teachers, especially North American ones. It's also true that the Korean English education system is a shambles, but whether or not the classrooms have native or non native English-speaking teachers it's still not going to work. The top down, rote-memorising, confucion tradition in education is not working for English language teaching in Korea. To balance this, the Korean education belief in the efficacy of exposure to native English-speakers seems like a good idea, but it isn't. They aren't looking for native speaking English teachers, they are hoping for native speaking English moons on sticks. Proximity to a native speaker (of any language) is not going effect some kind of weird language transfer. How many English teachers living in Korea have magically absorbed a functional level of Korean, just by being here?
I think the idea of the native English-speaking teacher as a model for natural English is misguided (though commonly held). I think a better understanding is the non Korean-speaking teacher as a reason and motivation for English language communication in the EFL classroom. Economically, the North American markets are very attractive to other industrial trading nations, and English is essential for trade relations with this bloc. But that is not the only trading bloc with attractive markets, or English-mediated international economies; standard native speaker accents are not at all vital when you are talking numbers with Chinese, Indian, Russian or European markets.
I'm not down on graduates from any discipline coming to Korea to teach English for a year to save some money or pay off some debts. There's a big market for their native English ability; a lot of these teachers give it their best shot and work hard at teaching English, good on them. However, I don't agree that exposure to native speakers is necessary for learning another language. I learnt German from a native English speaking, as well as native speaking German professors. The English speaker was by far the best teacher, but she was operating from the Goethe Institute and the Germans worked at the university. The native speakerness of these teachers was not the issue, the issue was the institutional objectives of each school (Goethe - speaking German, University - write papers and pass assignments).
I would be interested to hear about the OP's language learning experiences and how the native/non native issue played out there. |
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asams
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not taking sides, saying native speakers are better than non-native speakers. I was taught Spanish by an English speaker in high school and she was very effective (althought after 6 years I forgotten most of it). I agree with you about the Korean ESL system being in shambles. I was simply stating what I feel is the Korean view. If I'm fluent in Spanish, or Portuguese (I was able to speak both well at one point) there should be no reason for me to be discriminated against because I wasn't a native speaker.
I think Koreans have it in their mind that if you don't speak North American English then you won't be accepted by westerners, which is false. I think this stems from the lack of dialect in Korea. |
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Poemer
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Location: Mullae
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, there are dialects in Korea, and Koreans in Seoul generally tend to be harsh in their appraisal of those who speak in anything other than the Seoul dialect.
Off topic, but can you imagine how horrible it would be as an Indian or filipino English teacher in Korea? It is hard enough for the "upper class" of waegukin to get a fair shake, I can only imagine the trials and travails to be faced by persons from countries even less respected by Koreans. |
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curlygirl
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Pundang, Seohyeon dong
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:35 am Post subject: |
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For those who have learned another language, such as German or Spanish, from a non-native speaker: I don't believe this situation is comparable to the Korean situation.
Just for starters, Spaniards, Germans, French, English people, to name a few, share a romanized alphabet (aside from a few pronunciation quirks like the German umlaut and the Spanish tilde). Koreans have to move from reading hangeul to reading a romanized alphabet so it takes them much longer to begin reading efficiently.
We also share more than a few words with European countries because of extensive invasions and Latin etymology. So it's much easier for us to mimic the sounds of each others' languages.
It also takes much less time to read and begin speaking in the previously mentioned languages because they are all pronounced *pretty* much the same. There are many sounds that Koreans cannot produce without huge effort on their part because these sounds don't exist in their language.
When it comes to grammar, French or German, Spanish or English - there's not such a huge difference aside from things like gender-based articles (der, die, das) and the placement of adjectives (before or after a noun). Korean grammar is vastly different from any European language.
To argue the point that you've learned a European language from a non-native speaker, ergo it should be possible for Koreans to do it too, I believe is not a good argument.
Without good pronunciation you cannot be understood. Non-natives will not be able to teach pronunciation skills to the same level that we can.
Arguments welcomed! |
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curlygirl
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Pundang, Seohyeon dong
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:37 am Post subject: |
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double post
Last edited by curlygirl on Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jinks
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Location: Formerly: Lower North Island
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| curlygirl wrote: |
For those who have learned another language, such as German or Spanish, from a non-native speaker: I don't believe this situation is comparable to the Korean situation.
Just for starters, Spaniards, Germans, French, English people, to name a few, share a romanized alphabet (aside from a few pronunciation quirks like the German umlaut and the Spanish tilde). Koreans have to move from reading hangeul to reading a romanized alphabet so it takes them much longer to begin reading efficiently.
We also share more than a few words with European countries because of extensive invasions and Latin etymology. So it's much easier for us to mimic the sounds of each others' languages.
It also takes much less time to read and begin speaking in the previously mentioned languages because they are all pronounced *pretty* much the same. There are many sounds that Koreans cannot produce without huge effort on their part because these sounds don't exist in their language.
When it comes to grammar, French or German, Spanish or English - there's not such a huge difference aside from things like gender-based articles (der, die, das) and the placement of adjectives (before or after a noun). Korean grammar is vastly different from any European language.
To argue the point that you've learned a European language from a non-native speaker, ergo it should be possible for Koreans to do it too, I believe is not a good argument.
Without good pronunciation you cannot be understood. Non-natives will not be able to teach pronunciation skills to the same level that we can.
Arguments welcomed! |
That's a good point. The similarities between English and other European languages mean it's not always so good to compare that learning experience with such disparate languages as English and Korean. But I think that the discussion about NS/NSS teacher preference is wider than just that. If the teacher is actually a teacher, then the NS/NNS distinction is not important (in my opinion); what is important is fluency and accuracy, not accent. A garbled EFL accent is not good for a language teacher, but just because you are an EFL speaker it does not necessarily follow that you have a garbled accent. Some non native English-speaking Danes and Germans could teach a more melifluous and clearly understood English than some native speaking Glaswegians or Australians. In an ideal world (which this is not) all English teachers, both native and non native English-speakers would be able to use English clearly and accurately. This doesn't mean I think people with strong non standard native English accents are less able to teach English than standard North American (or British) English speakers, but I do think the wide variety of native English accents means that non native accents are OK too. In the late 1990s the number of second language English speakers slightly overtook the number of native English speakers. Native speakers of English are not a homogenous group, and as such have little chance to band together to dictate what is and what isn't 'standard' English. In the face of a huge global uptake of English as an international language, native English speakers are losing their rights (if we ever had any) to control the way English is used internationally. Just as the Anglo-Saxons had to after 1066. |
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Morning_Star
Joined: 21 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Are Native Speaking Really Just Lucky? |
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| Been There, Taught That wrote: |
I don't know if anyone has already posted this, but this is from the K-Times, Dec 28, 2008, as you can see. Just two short quotes appear below.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/12/117_36881.html
| Quote: |
12-28-2008 18:05
Non-Natives Can Become English Teachers
By Kang Shin-who
Staff Reporter
Non-native English speakers from India and other countries that use English as an official language will be able to teach at public schools from next year [2009]. . .
English education experts are positive about the plan. ``This word `native speaker' is an invention there's no reason why we should consider someone lucky enough to hold a passport from a country using English as a first language country to be a better speaker than someone from a land where English is used less prominently. I know many Filipinos and Indians who speak English more comfortably than some people who were born in the U.S.,'' said Rob Dickey, an American English professor. |
Personally, I can't believe a word of this expert testimonial. No One I know speaks English with more direct knowledge of it than a native speaker, and no one around me more comfortably than me. Are we really just 'lucky enough' to be able to be native speaker, and to whom do we our debts pay, toward whom do we our prayers pray to acknowledge this gift? No one on earth, I suspect. I consider myself lucky to be alive, to have been born where I was, to be a lot of things, it's true, but it's not a contest. You're a native speaker or you aren't. That can't be replaced, no matter what language you are speaking. If it could, Korea could train its own to speak and teach fluently the English language. They've been at it enough years now, haven't they? |
That's a very ignorant comment. If you must know, being a native english speak doesn't necessarily make you a good english teacher. Knowing something and knowing how to teach it are two completely different things. |
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