|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
CyberGuy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea
|
 Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:27 pm Post subject: The Ayatollah Khomeni Obsession |
 |
|
| Axl Rose wrote: |
How can it possibly not be relevant when, under Shariah, fathers can have their daughters, of any age, married off to a man, of any age, directly in accordance with the Fatwah issued by the Ayatollah* (who issued said Fatwah in accordance with the life, deeds and teachings of Muhammad, who is their model)?
|
Again, pretty disgusting stereotypes you have there.
Islam surely has restrictions for the age of consent.
I had posted the link to the well-researched video earlier which has references to scientific journals and lots of other authentic research material. But it seems your head is stuck on a person called Ayatollah who was considered a scholar by some of Shia Muslims.
Shia Muslims are 5~7% of all Muslims (Shias are majorly found in Iran).
Sunnia Muslims are 93~95% of all Muslims.
Ayatollah is NOT considered a scholar/leader by Sunni Muslims.
At the moment you are generalizing ideas on 93~97% of Muslims by (yet again) cherry picking from a part of the 5~7% of Muslims representing an sect which is majorly found in only one country called Iran.
Here is the video in two parts I was referenced earlier too:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9B75E9DF00333D58
I see you will not spend 10 minutes in watching this video but you have 10 hours to puke your venom on this forum to force the guys like me to clean your crap.
Age of consent is the minimum age at which a person is considered to be capable of legally having sex.
Kindly read the following to open your eyes and to know that, after passing thousand of years, how the human mindset suddenly developed in just last one century to start to feel bad about marrying young persons. And even today, there are many many countries with the age of consent of 12 or 13 years in their law. It seems people just have 1 century long memory. They dont know what was the societal mindset about the marriages and age of concent just before the last century. Kindly read and observe the sudden evolution of the human mindset:
Spain: The age of consent is 13 years. A new Criminal Code was introduced in 1995 which specified an age of consent of 12 under Article 181f for all sexual acts; and this was raised to 13 a few years later.
Cyprus: The Age of Consent for Woman/Boy anal intercourse is 13 years. No age limit for other contacts
France: Age for heterosexual was 13 years. The latter was increased to 15 in 1945. In 1978, the age of consent for homosexual acts was lowered to 18, and later, in 1981, it was further lowered to 15, in line with heterosexual acts.
(If your parents or grandparents happened to live in France in mid 20th century, then they might be pedophiles, which makes you produce of pedophilia too)
Italy: The age of consent in Italy is 14 years, with a close in age exception that reduces the minimum age to 13 if the participants' ages are less than 3 years apart.
England: The age of consent for heterosexual acts was set at 12 in 1275 and remained so for six centuries. A concern that young girls were being sold into brothels led Parliament to raise the age of consent to 13 in 1875 under the Offences Against the Person Act 1875. 10 years later, the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 further raised the age of consent to 16; and also criminalized male homosexual acts.
Canada: The age of consent for heterosexual vaginal sex was 12 until 1890 when parliament raised it to 14. It still stays at 14.
Mexico: Federal law may allow relations between young persons as low as 12.
Japan: The National age of consent in Japan is 13 for both males and females (Only made such law in late 20th century)
China: In China (PRC) the national legal age of consent for sexual activity is 14 years for both males and females.
Argentina: The age of consent in Argentina is 13 years.
Bolivia: The age of consent in Bolivia is set at puberty (no matter someone gets puberty at the age of 7)
Zimbabwe: Age of consent is 12 years.
And dozens of other countries have age of consent that which most of people could consider as childhood, such as 12, 13, 14 or even no concept of age limit was there in the history of some countries.
So even within United States: you can have sex with a young girl in one state but soon after you move to the other state you will suddenly be a Pedophile. Makes me wonder how "intellectual" of you when you spew hatred on the people for the same reasons you do not adhere to.
Hmm, above discussion makes me think that you should keep your crappy "18 years" hoax to yourself as it does not apply to all American states, yet far impossible in rest of the world.
Need to remind that Islam applies certain rules for marriage:
1- Consent of Girl and Boy.
2- Permission and Consent of Guardians of girl and boy (in case there is no guardian then state will judge and decide)
3- Mental maturity of the girl and boy.
There are some other conditions too, but all of above 3 have to be met as well, so you might understand that in Islam, a person can not consume marriage even at the age of 16 if he/she did not attain maturity, and is not ready with consent., while on the other hand in your case: if you did not attain puberty and you are 13 years old then you are perfectly fine in having sex (in or out of marriage) with any other guy and that will still be legal in most of the countries of the world.
If in some American states or on the internet, you can watch all the porn stuff and can fornicate everywhere then please do not start judging Islam from your personal narrow-minded points of views.
Just one day before your 18th birthday, you are a kid and the next day you are a grown up man/woman?? Thats a cartoon approach, maybe you see too much of Family Guy.
Giving destructive and stereotypical remarks is very easily done but the huge job of clarifications and constructive arguments is dumped on the guys like me.
In other word, learning propaganda from handy channels is easy but unlearning of propaganda takes manifold efforts.
So, people like mises, Axl Rose and bigverne. Keep up the cheap shots, dudes !!
CG.
Last edited by CyberGuy on Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:38 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Axl Rose
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| CyberGuy wrote: |
| Islam surely has restrictions for the age of consent |
It has none. In Islam, there is no sex outside marriage. A man can have his daughter of any age married to a man of any age, but he must wait until the girl is at least 9 before having sex with her.
As far as I'm aware, all Islamic states, except Saudi Arabia, have secular laws on marriageable age, but these are secular laws and devised independently of Shariah.
| CyberGuy wrote: |
Age of consent is the minimum age at which a person is considered to be capable of legally having sex.
|
capable of legally entering into (an arranged) marriage (and therefore capable of legally having sex) in Islamic law. The above definition you've cited comes from secular law in Western states, not Islamic states and certainly not Shariah.
There's also a massive ethical difference between pre-marital consensual sex between two teens, in a culture where sex outside of marriage is permitted, and an arranged (often forced) marriage and sex, regardless of consent (since in Islamic law consent = consent of the father) subsequent to that.
| CyberGuy wrote: |
| Kindly read the following to open your eyes and to know that, after passing thousand of years, how the human mindset suddenly developed in just last one century to start to feel bad about marrying young persons. |
poor standard of debate.
Claim: child marriage and sex with children is permissible in Islam
(your) counterclaim: child marriage exists, or has existed, in Spain (etc) too
In logic, and high standards of debate like in criminal courts, you do not falsify "a = x" with "b = x too". You need to say "a is not x" to falsify.
| CyberGuy wrote: |
Need to remind that Islam applies certain rules for marriage:
1- Puberty of the girl and boy.
2- Permission of Guardians of girl and boy (in case there is no guardian then state will judge and decide)
3- Mental maturity of the girl and boy.
|
Wrong. look at this
In 7 countries, the "age of consent" = "must be married" (all of them Islamic states)
The question then - since age of consent is superfluous if one simply must be married to have legal sex - is "what age can one marry?" and that's where Islamic countries' laws differ not only with each other, but also with Shariah.
| CyberGuy wrote: |
| There are some other conditions too, but all of above 3 have to be met as well, so you might understand that in Islam, a person can not consume marriage even at the age of 16 if he/she did not attain puberty |
That's absolutely incorrect. In Islam, Muhammad is the model and, since he had sex with a 9-year old wife, it is permissible for a Muslim man to have sex with a girl of that age. In countries where that is not the case - in countries, that is, where secular law prohibits marriage to, say, under 15s (like in Iran) - that is due to those countries' secular laws and nothing to do with Islam. In Islam, the age of consent is "must be married" and in Islam there is no minimum for marriage, but there is a minumum for sex, and that is the example extolled by the prophet (9).
| CyberGuy wrote: |
| while on the other hand in your case: if you did not attain puberty and you are 13 years old then you are perfectly fine in having sex (in or out of marriage) with any other guy and that will still be legal in most of the countries of the world. |
All over the Anglosphere, the age of consent is 16/17 and laws there also prohibit sex with partners more than 5 years older. So a 40-year old man having consensual sex with a 16 year old girl is illegal in many cases. And the ethical distinction between consensual sex involving teens, where consent comes from the two parties involved, vs Islamic law where "consent" = "father's consent (to marry, therefore to have sex)" couldn't be clearer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Axl Rose wrote: |
| CyberGuy wrote: |
| Islam surely has restrictions for the age of consent |
It has none. In Islam, there is no sex outside marriage. A man can have his daughter of any age married to a man of any age, but he must wait until the girl is at least 9 before having sex with her.
As far as I'm aware, all Islamic states, except Saudi Arabia, have secular laws on marriageable age, but these are secular laws and devised independently of Shariah.
| CyberGuy wrote: |
Age of consent is the minimum age at which a person is considered to be capable of legally having sex.
|
capable of legally entering into (an arranged) marriage (and therefore capable of legally having sex) in Islamic law. The above definition you've cited comes from secular law in Western states, not Islamic states and certainly not Shariah.
There's also a massive ethical difference between pre-marital consensual sex between two teens, in a culture where sex outside of marriage is permitted, and an arranged (often forced) marriage and sex, regardless of consent (since in Islamic law consent = consent of the father) subsequent to that.
| CyberGuy wrote: |
| Kindly read the following to open your eyes and to know that, after passing thousand of years, how the human mindset suddenly developed in just last one century to start to feel bad about marrying young persons. |
poor standard of debate.
Claim: child marriage and sex with children is permissible in Islam
(your) counterclaim: child marriage exists, or has existed, in Spain (etc) too
In logic, and high standards of debate like in criminal courts, you do not falsify "a = x" with "b = x too". You need to say "a is not x" to falsify.
| CyberGuy wrote: |
Need to remind that Islam applies certain rules for marriage:
1- Puberty of the girl and boy.
2- Permission of Guardians of girl and boy (in case there is no guardian then state will judge and decide)
3- Mental maturity of the girl and boy.
|
Wrong. look at this
In 7 countries, the "age of consent" = "must be married" (all of them Islamic states)
The question then - since age of consent is superfluous if one simply must be married to have legal sex - is "what age can one marry?" and that's where Islamic countries' laws differ not only with each other, but also with Shariah.
| CyberGuy wrote: |
| There are some other conditions too, but all of above 3 have to be met as well, so you might understand that in Islam, a person can not consume marriage even at the age of 16 if he/she did not attain puberty |
That's absolutely incorrect. In Islam, Muhammad is the model and, since he had sex with a 9-year old wife, it is permissible for a Muslim man to have sex with a girl of that age. In countries where that is not the case - in countries, that is, where secular law prohibits marriage to, say, under 15s (like in Iran) - that is due to those countries' secular laws and nothing to do with Islam. In Islam, the age of consent is "must be married" and in Islam there is no minimum for marriage, but there is a minumum for sex, and that is the example extolled by the prophet (9).
| CyberGuy wrote: |
| while on the other hand in your case: if you did not attain puberty and you are 13 years old then you are perfectly fine in having sex (in or out of marriage) with any other guy and that will still be legal in most of the countries of the world. |
All over the Anglosphere, the age of consent is 16/17 and laws there also prohibit sex with partners more than 5 years older. So a 40-year old man having consensual sex with a 16 year old girl is illegal in many cases. And the ethical distinction between consensual sex involving teens, where consent comes from the two parties involved, vs Islamic law where "consent" = "father's consent (to marry, therefore to have sex)" couldn't be clearer. |
Well met.
It bothers me when apologists for the savagery that is Shariah Law try to legitimize it. It's almost like a horse wearing blinders: see the goal, get there, ignore everything around you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| The question of if sharia allows child rape will depend on who is applying sharia. However, the "prophet" did rape a 9 year old, after marrying her when she was an elderly 6 years of age. So, the next time you see the signs in London etc saying "behead those who insult mo'" remember just what kind of a monster they are using the threat of violence to protect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CyberGuy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| The question of if sharia allows child rape will depend on who is applying sharia. However, the "prophet" did rape a 9 year old, after marrying her when she was an elderly 6 years of age. So, the next time you see the signs in London etc saying "behead those who insult mo'" remember just what kind of a monster they are using the threat of violence to protect. |
I am busy right now, will come back to reply the rest of posts.
At the moment, I wanna say if you think "consummating marriage" is rape then I guess your father must be raping your mother daily. Go get some police.
I guess your age is not more than 1400 years that you are claiming to know everything like a witness. So better shut up if you do not have any proof.
All of your grandfather must be rapist because according to SCIENTIFIC historical journals, your grandmas few hundred years ago had very short age and they had to marry around the age of 10. I still know a Muslim American whose mother is from India and Father from Yemen. His grandmother was married around the age of 11 and she remained damn healthy all her life and was very happy with her marriage. AND she has a big healthy family. Just because big families are not part of norm in your lonely society full of bastards then it does not mean having big families is sick. Its just that your mind is sick in not being able to comprehend that having a big family is just "different culture".
Similarly, when you have a worm stuck in your head which has a label of "18" on it, then you again are retarded enough not to comprehend that every marriage earlier than 16 or 18 is not rape, given that the Guardians of the girl (AKA father and mother) AND girl herself was perfectly fine with the marriage. It was only the sick bastards of this age who are preaching people whats right and whats wrong based on their own psychosis.
You can not site a single reference from the times of Muhammad when even a single pagan objected such marriage (yet objection by any Muslim is unthinkable).
Talking about Spain, England and other countries. My whole point was not to prove that all these countries are applying laws supporting pedophilia BUT my point was that just because you live in some wormhole in USA where they tell you that you are an infant till one day before your 18th birthday, then it does not essentially mean that the rest of societies are pedophiles.
In korea, they eat dogs. Sure the dogs must be getting hurt. Americans are disgusted to see Korean eating dogs, while the same Americans forget that they eat pigs which is considered very gross by any Muslim to even think about toughing it. For vegetarians, eating any animal is cruelty.
Thats called being DIVERSE. So, keep your retarded ideas to yourself till you are able to even pronounce Iran and Iraq correctly, or till you are able to locate'em on the world map.
CG.
Axl, I'll drown you in your own dirt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes. Rape. A 9 year old.. Jeepers dude. How morally corrupted are you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZEJ4OJTgg8
But let's go through this amoral nonsense line for line:
| Quote: |
| At the moment, I wanna say if you think "consummating marriage" is rape then I guess your father must be raping your mother daily. Go get some police. |
My mom isn't a little child of 9 years.
| Quote: |
| I guess your age is not more than 1400 years that you are claiming to know everything like a witness. So better shut up if you do not have any proof. |
It is not disputed that ayisha was 6 when married and 8 or 9 when banged by that dirty old child-banging man. I'll not shut up, and you can kiss my kafir ass.
| Quote: |
| All of your grandfather must be rapist because according to SCIENTIFIC historical journals, your grandmas few hundred years ago had very short age and they had to marry around the age of 10. |
If in my lineage there is a man who married a 9 year old little girl, and banged her, then he was a dirty old pedophile.
Do you see the moral clarity in me? I have no built in defensiveness, because I wasn't emotionally and intellectually stunted - abused - by my culture.
| Quote: |
| I still know a Muslim American whose mother is from India and Father from Yemen. His grandmother was married around the age of 11 and she remained damn healthy all her life and was very happy with her marriage. AND she has a big healthy family. |
11 isn't 6. Math much?
| Quote: |
| Just because big families are not part of norm in your lonely society full of bastards then it does not mean having big families is sick. |
Well, isn't this intolerant? I have a large family.
| Quote: |
| Its just that your mind is sick in not being able to comprehend that having a big family is just "different culture". |
My mind is fine, it is your culture that has totally ruined yours. Child rape is not just a "different culture" or "big family". It is child rape, and only human pigs would do or defend such a thing.
| Quote: |
| Similarly, when you have a worm stuck in your head which has a label of "18" on it, then you again are retarded enough not to comprehend that every marriage earlier than 16 or 18 is not rape, |
Marriage at 6, raped her at 8 or 9.
| Quote: |
| given that the Guardians of the girl (AKA father and mother) AND girl herself was perfectly fine with the marriage. |
Because a woman is property of her family. Just to be clear, right?
| Quote: |
| It was only the sick bastards of this age who are preaching people whats right and whats wrong based on their own psychosis. |
Look, if you want to *beep* a 9 year old just say it. No need to start throwing around psyco-babble.
| Quote: |
| You can not site a single reference from the times of Muhammad when even a single pagan objected such marriage (yet objection by any Muslim is unthinkable). |
They were all backwards. This is why a mature adult today does not look to an illiterate goat herder pedophile from more than a thousand years ago for moral guidance.
| Quote: |
| Talking about Spain, England and other countries. My whole point was not to prove that all these countries are applying laws supporting pedophilia BUT my point was that just because you live in some wormhole in USA where they tell you that you are an infant till one day before your 18th birthday, then it does not essentially mean that the rest of societies are pedophiles. |
Why do you assume I'm Americans? Maybe I'm a dirty Jew...
Anyways, the discussion of if 18 or 16 or 14 is appropriate is different from marriage at 6. 6 = child and 14 = young adult. Maybe they didn't teach maths and human biology is whatever shitty little madrassa you wasted a decade of your life at???
| Quote: |
| In korea, they eat dogs. Sure the dogs must be getting hurt. Americans are disgusted to see Korean eating dogs, while the same Americans forget that they eat pigs which is considered very gross by any Muslim to even think about toughing it. For vegetarians, eating any animal is cruelty. |
This reminds of of sociology 101.
Ok, Koreans eating dogs = mo' raping a 8 or 9 year old child. Gotcha.
| Quote: |
| Thats called being DIVERSE. |
Child rape = diverse. I suspected..
| Quote: |
| So, keep your retarded ideas to yourself till you are able to even pronounce Iran and Iraq correctly, or till you are able to locate'em on the world map. |
Will do. Shit, I can. So, then, backwards one, what next? Are you going to threaten to behead me now? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CyberGuy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
I do not support child-rape but do differ in the matters related to "what should be age, conditions and regulations" for marriage.
The talk here is getting insulting and offensive about attacking faiths. So I end here.
As far as the "offense" from my part is concerned, thats not really an offense when in you are adherent to anti-theism and marriage has no meaning for you cuz its all about fornication. In atheism, it is about "having sex", and not "marriage". Or even if there is marriage then you "test-drive" before marrying, which again has no problem in producing illegitimate children.
In your dictionary, a bastard is not something bad, so why would an atheist get offended when marriage itself is a a concept from religion?
According to FBI's report, almost 40% of American Children are illegitimate. Now thats a nation of huge number of bastards (Of course from the perspective of marriage).
CG. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I do not support child-rape but do differ in the matters related to "what should be age, conditions and regulations" for marriage. |
No, you just emotionally defend the actions of a guy who has been dead for more than a thousand years. It is breathtakingly bizarre.
| Quote: |
| The talk here is getting insulting and offensive about attacking faiths. So I end here. |
Ha. Your whole silly little religion is "offensive" by any reasonable measure. Don't cry "offensive" too many times, because eventually the obsession with not being offensive will smack you in your face.
| Quote: |
| As far as the "offense" from my part is concerned, thats not really an offense when you anti-theism and marriage has no meaning for you cuz its all about fornication. |
Ridiculous.
| Quote: |
| In atheism, it is about "having sex", and not "marriage". |
One of the wonderful things about secular society is that one does not need to 1) get married or 2) pay to get laid. And women quite enjoy sex, and I find female sexual liberation to be a super-duper awesome thing.
| Quote: |
In your dictionary, a bastard is not something bad, so why would an atheist get offended when marriage itself is a a concept from religion?
...
According to FBI's report, almost 40% of American Children are illegitimate. Now thats a nation of huge number of bastards (Of course from the perspective of marriage). |
Must sting that a nation of 40% illegitimates is able to easily step on every muslim country on earth. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Cyberguy:
You make some valid points. However your overall approach tends to lend credence to the notion that Muslim defenders are all just a bunch of closet reactionaries, using the language of "tolerance and diversity" as cover for the promotion of partiarchal values.
| Quote: |
Just because big families are not part of norm in your lonely society full of bastards then it does not mean having big families is sick. Its just that your mind is sick in not being able to comprehend that having a big family is just "different culture".
|
Even my mother, one of the most conservative Catholics I know, goes ballistic at the denigration of children born "out-of-wedlock". Especially when it involves the use of THAT word.
| Quote: |
In your dictionary, a bastard is not something bad, so why would an atheist get offended when marriage itself is a a concept from religion?
|
Because calling a child born to unmarried parents a "bastard" is, in and of itself, insulting. It's like using a racial slur. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Axl Rose
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Pligganease wrote: |
It bothers me when apologists for the savagery that is Shariah Law try to legitimize it. It's almost like a horse wearing blinders: see the goal, get there, ignore everything around you. |
It bothers me to no end, but it depends. One expects excuses galore made for Muslim barbarism by Muslims themselves, but it's much worse when it comes from Western left wingers; grovelling apologies from so-called liberals for the most vicious and reactionary and grotesque system of human society ever conceived. The world has forgotten the location of the irony button, eh?
In many a discussion with a left winger about Muhammad's pedophilia, they've always trotted out the same cliches as CyberGuy - that it was the done thing in those days and one shouldn't apply current moral standards to the past. What garbage. You're either a pedophile or you're not. You're either turned on by little kids or you're not. A sexual attraction to prepubescent kids is a psychological disorder that either one has or one does not.
Left wingers will even apologize, grovel and make excuses for child rape, the most heinous crime of them all, to appease Islam.
Last edited by Axl Rose on Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: The Ayatollah Khomeni Obsession |
|
|
| CyberGuy wrote: |
[Canada: The age of consent for heterosexual vaginal sex was 12 until 1890 when parliament raised it to 14. It still stays at 14.
CG. |
Only it hasn't. It was raised to 16 by the present government. You might want to check a few of your other "facts" as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
