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Discussions about legal issues regarding visas
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Scouse Mouse



Joined: 07 Jan 2007
Location: Cloud #9

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

subicslugger wrote:
Mr. Mouse,

Who filed the report? Was is ATEK? Was it the evil Benjamin Wagner?


Wagner filed 1 report, that seems to be just fine.

ATEK and their followers filed over 100 identical reports asking for F-Visa holders to be subject to further checks. If you read the Korean in the link I added above, you will see that I have been taking that fight to the next level.

As for the Human Rights lawyers - they can do whatever they want. They are fighting a battle that doesn't need to be fought. The teacher they are fighting for has already submitted the required checks as part of the original visa application. They only refused tests for renewal, which is just fine. Immi shouldn't be asking for them for renewals anyway.

The most telling thing in the fight is that the teacher had the human rights lawyer lined up before she refused them. Immi didn't really care, and when they go to court they will say "We don't need another check, she never submitted another check. Why are we here?"

The teacher is making a fool of herself. I'm happy to let her. ATEK will claim it as a victory, and then the Korean media will pick up on what actually happened and they will have made fools of themselves too. I'm looking forward to it.
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sligo



Joined: 15 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case people haven't seen it, here is the Wagner report.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15768998/Nhrck-Report-2
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KimchiGarden



Joined: 19 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

subicslugger wrote:
Mr. Mouse,


You successfully got rid of Hellman, who is by the way the most insignificant person involved in the whole matter. Why stop at him? Come on guys, keep digging, keep being the keyboard warriors that you are. I am honestly disappointed that after the report came out, you all kind of got quiet. Why?


I am not done with Hellmann. I want justice. The agner runs too deep to stop.
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pocariboy73



Joined: 23 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sligo wrote:
In case people haven't seen it, here is the Wagner report.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15768998/Nhrck-Report-2


Just so people are aware, the Report linked above was not the Original Report filed in February during ATEK's "cut and pate" petition drive to the NHRCK.

Prof. Wagner has decided not to release the Original Report in question but instead release to the public an edited version for "educational purposes". Whether or not it's the same as the Original, only Prof. Wagner and ATEK know the truth of that.

Recently, the Korean English media have been following the events more closely as one E2 Visa teacher has decided to take the E2 discrimination issue to the Korean Constitutional Court with the help of a few Korean Human Rights Lawyers.

See: http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2905786

Quote:
In February, Benjamin Wagner, an associate professor at Kyung Hee University Law School, petitioned the National Human Rights Commission to widen the scope of medical tests for HIV and drug abuse to the entire foreign language community here to include holders of E-1 professor visas, F-2 visas for foreigners married to Koreans and F-4 visas for ethnic Koreans.


Prof. Wagner has since denied saying any of this and has asked for a retraction.

In another instance, a reporter for the KoreanTimes writes below:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/10/117_32169.html

Quote:
In response, many E-2 visa holders have complained that the government should apply the same visa screening rules to foreign English teachers holding other visas. They are urging the government to use the same restrictions on teachers holding E-1 (professorship), F-2 (spouse of a Korean) or F-4 (ethnic Korean) visas.


Again, Prof. Wagner complained to the reporter saying on a Blog "...that his shoddy reporting has now - FOR THE THIRD TIME - pitted foreign English teachers against each other."

If we go back to February, during ATEK's "Equal Checks For All" campaign, ATEL claims that over 100 "cut and paste" complaints were sent off to the NHRCK containing the following paragraph below:

Quote:
"While most Korean citizen public school teachers undergo criminal background checks and academic qualification verification, Korean citizen private institute teachers often do not. Non-citizen teachers on F-2 and F-4 visas working in public or private schools also do not have criminal background checks or academic qualifications verified. There is no reasonable basis to exempt Korean citizen teachers, ethnic Korean non-citizen teachers (F-4 visa holders), or non-citizen teachers married to Koreans (F-2 visa holders) from any precautionary measures that have been applied to E2 visa holders. On the same token there is no reasonable basis to subject E2 visa holders to further precautionary measures than Korean citizen teachers, F-4 visa holders, or F-2 visa holders."


Now, when we compare the quotes from the recent newspaper articles, which Prof. Wagner fiercely objected to and had the paragraphs in question removed; to the petitions filed by ATEK supporters during the ECFA campaign, there are striking similarities of pitting E2 holders against F Holders.

So is Prof. Wagner also in disagreement with ATEK's complaints to the NHRCK in February too? We have yet to hear from him about that one, despite repeated attempts to ask him. A response from Prof. Wagner would be much appreciated. Prof. Wagner knows where the discussion is taking place where he can explain his position in full to help clear the air.

And how did the reporters from various newspapers all get it wrong when in fact ATEK's petitions were virtually word-for-word to the newspaper articles? Because there clearly is a comparison in black and white, between E visa holders and Korean nationals as well F Visa Holders. An official response from ATEK on this matter would be nice.

And as TJ has pointed out on another Blog, Prof. Wagner in an interview with The Marmots Hole said below:

Quote:
"I believe F-2 and F-4 visa holders can also avoid criminal background checks, in addition to the other E-2 requirements. When F-2s and F-4s are doing the same work as other non-citizens on E-2 visas, not holding them same requirements would also be discriminatory."


TJ goes on to say, that "ATEK spent four months referring people with questions regarding the content of your inaccessible report to this interview. Did ATEK also misquote Prof. Wagner? ATEK used this language in their example complaints that coincided with Prof. Wagner's February filing;" (see below)

Quote:
"There is no reasonable basis to exempt Korean citizen teachers, ethnic Korean non-citizen teachers (F-4 visa holders), or non-citizen teachers married to Koreans (F-2 visa holders) from any precautionary measures that have been applied to E2 visa holders."


So, again if over 100 foreign teachers with E2 visas submitted the "cut and paste" ATEK petitions based on the above wording to the NHRCK, and various Korean English newspapers are reporting that the E2 teachers feel that way, how is that a misrepresentation on either Prof. Wagner's or ATEK's position?

In conclusion, I don't see why Prof. Wagner, ATEK, and some Bloggers are running to the press , sending nasty letters, and asking for retractions and apologies, when the media seems to be reporting exactly what the E2's have petitioned for in the first place.
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howie2424



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You forgot this one from the day after the Wagner report was filed in February.

Quote:
A law professor filed a report with the National Human Rights Commission yesterday asserting that health and criminal checks required of native English language teachers entering Korea are discriminatory.

Under Korea’s current E-2 visa policy, native English-speaking teachers are required to have the checks, while ethnic Korean non-citizen teachers holding F-4 visas and non-citizen teachers married to Koreans who have F-2 visas are not.

Professor Benjamin Wagner said the discrepancy violates the rights of native-English speakers to equal and fair treatment.


http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2900646[/i]
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A.T.E.K. of course has still not held an election. they never intended on becoming anything , they just needed to use some noobies. They never intended on becoming an association. just three self important guys and a computer. Now they have put people livelihoods and sojourns at risks. Apparently so that their pothead friends can work in Korea.
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phoneboothface



Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rollo wrote:
A.T.E.K. of course has still not held an election. they never intended on becoming anything , they just needed to use some noobies. They never intended on becoming an association. just three self important guys and a computer. Now they have put people livelihoods and sojourns at risks. Apparently so that their pothead friends can work in Korea.


Wow that's one way to look at it. Proof to back up your claims?
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually Rollo ATEK has held elections at the national level and at the Chapter level.

They did not announce it very loudly but they did have elections. They filled some national seats, one seems to be vacant.

The voting took place through email (not exactly legitimate or manipulatiion proof) and turnout was abysmally low.

Still..elections there were.

Now as for the "pothead" friend comments, that really does not help the debate in any way, shape or form. It just brings aggressivity and insults to it. Lets steer clear of insults.

There is plenty to debate about ATEK if you oppose them: how their elections were run, how many votes were needed to elect someone, who was elected, which seats are vacant, how they handled the H1 flu issue through a thinly veiled threat to the Korean government...and so on.
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Straphanger



Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Location: Chilgok, Korea

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sligo wrote:
In case people haven't seen it, here is the Wagner report.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15768998/Nhrck-Report-2

This is dated May, 2009. It's my understanding that the Wagner Report was issued and sent in February. Why the discrepancy on dates?
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T-J



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duck James! There is a [Mod Edit] storm coming.
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Scouse Mouse



Joined: 07 Jan 2007
Location: Cloud #9

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know how Hellmann wants background checks dropped?

Gah... I have no way of saying this other than to say look at this.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scouse Mouse....I read the blog entry and it is disturbing. I do not know what to say to something like this.

If all thats posted there is true and it seems based on facts, then this is more than crap storm...it is far, far worse.
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pocariboy73



Joined: 23 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scouse Mouse wrote:
You know how Hellmann wants background checks dropped?

Gah... I have no way of saying this other than to say look at this.



Oh My God!

What a huge disappointment for the foreign community of Korea - especially for ATEK, the Blog sites which supported him, the Korean English newspapers which helped spread his message, and so many other people who aided him throughout his days in Korea. What will the Korean community think of us foreign teachers now, considering one of the founders of ATEK and poster boy of the ECFA campaign may have had such a "scandalous" past? The beep is gonna hit the fan, my friends.

This is one of the reasons why I resented the fact that ATEK promoted to the media that they represented the interests of the foreign ESL community. And acted without a mandate making serious blunders along the way.

The the foreign ESL community in Korea has been dealt a serious blow. No doubt KIS wil implement even stricter visa rules.

Unbelievable....


Last edited by pocariboy73 on Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:47 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Bondrock



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From its inception, ATEK has been manipulating the media, the blog sites, this site, and a small number of newbie teachers. I have called ATEK media whores in the past and will continue my stance.

From square one there has only been one agenda put forth by ATEK and that is to "pad" their respective resumes.

I applaud any efforts to rid Korea of ATEK. Hats off to the poster who has done the necessary detective work.
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rabbitsaregood



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Straphanger wrote:
sligo wrote:
In case people haven't seen it, here is the Wagner report.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15768998/Nhrck-Report-2

This is dated May, 2009. It's my understanding that the Wagner Report was issued and sent in February. Why the discrepancy on dates?


I believe part 2 was added as an addendum after Feb. Might be wrong though.
More articles here:

http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/06/05/200906050062.asp
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/06/04/200906040048.asp
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