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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject: Sudan thread |
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I predict that this is going to be a rather dull thread. It will probably focus on Darfur.
Does anyone disagree that what has happened there is terrible? If so, you can help to make this thread rock. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| It doesn't have to be a boring thread. We could always turn it into a thread about Islam. That usually heats things up. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:25 am Post subject: |
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http://alirizvisblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/where-is-muslim-outrage-over-darfur.html
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In a part of the world not far from the Middle East, there is a war-ravaged country whose government is supporting a brutal military offensive against a population of Muslims living on territory under its control.
According to UN estimates, 300,000 people have died in the conflict so far; the Coalition for International Justice put this number at almost 400,000 - and that was in 2005.
The United States has officially termed it a "genocide".
In July 2008, prosecutors at the International Criminal Court (ICC) indicted Omar al-Bashir, the president of Sudan - who has funded and supported the Janjaweed militia that has carried out the murder and systematic rape of non-Arab African Muslims in Darfur - charging him with war crimes, genocide, murder, and crimes against humanity.
For five years, the Arab League was functionally silent.
But last year, they finally spoke out - against the head of the ICC's prosecutorial team against al-Bashir, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, slamming him for having an "unbalanced stance".
The Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), made up of 57 Islamic countries, issued a statement declaring its solidarity with al-Bashir, calling the indictment "unwarranted and unacceptable".
Less than a year later, at the Arab Summit held in Kuwait City January 19, President Bashar al-Assad of Syria called on other Arab countries to brand Israel a "terrorist state". Millions of Muslims worldwide voiced their outrage against Israel's military offensive in Gaza. Massive protests were organized in most major cities across the world. Real-time casualty counts were posted on Facebook statuses. I was asked to sign more petitions in support of Gaza in three weeks than I have for Darfur in five years.
Where are the large-scale protests and outrage from the Muslim community over the senseless deaths and rape of hundreds of thousands of poverty-ridden African Muslims?
Why is there such a glaring discrepancy between the Muslim world's response to the atrocities in Gaza and the atrocities in Darfur?
If the Darfur genocide was being carried out by Jews or Christians instead of Arab Muslims, would we see a different response? |
There. A focus on Darfur and islam.
The silence from the "muslim world" or "muslim community" on this issue causes a good deal of my indifference to the things they regularly cry about. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: |
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African leaders in Africa generally defend and support other crackpot African leaders (such as Mugabe) and I"m not suprised that Arab leaders do the same. But dispicable as this is, it is not the fault of innocents in Gaza that there is ignorance/indifference to the crimes in Darfur. Japanese scream and cry when US marines rape young Japanese girls. They ignore the fact that rape of Japanese women by Japanese men is out of control. It's a dirty secret. This doesn't mean we shouldn't condemn Marines who rape Japanese girls, nor should we have less sympathy for their victims and say "who cares because Japanese women are regularly being raped by Japanese men."
And to a great extent we in the West are culpable for what is happening in Gaza. I'm not sure how well that holds with regard to the situation in Darfur.
I should also point out that I spend much time in the company of muslims and I know that some of them are dismayed by the situation in Sudan. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Of course the reality of kids/women being blown to bits in Gaza is terrible. Le Duh. The muslim double standard is also disgusting, in a different way. If it's Jews, it is news. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
And to a great extent we in the West are culpable for what is happening in Gaza. I'm not sure how well that holds with regard to the situation in Darfur. |
Oh, c'mon. You're not going to even try to make the case that the West is to blame? You're slipping, Big Bird. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
And to a great extent we in the West are culpable for what is happening in Gaza. I'm not sure how well that holds with regard to the situation in Darfur. |
Oh, c'mon. You're not going to even try to make the case that the West is to blame? You're slipping, Big Bird. |
The US and the EU colluded in the dreadful embargo that has caused such despair and misery, malnutrion among children, and even fatalities. It is a cruel and disgusting policy, and surely a crime. Anyone with an ounce of compassion who has read in any detail about the effects of this medieaval siege on Gaza can only come away saddened and appalled that this situation has been allowed to continue for 2 and a half years. I feel angry that my government supported this policy.
Not only that, it seems the West, and certainly the US gave their tacit backing to the latest bombardment of the world's biggest prison camp. The US and the UK have also done a great job of continually supplying the equipment and bombs that continue to kill innocents in the territories and so recently killed 400 kids. We can really pat ourselves on the back.
I"m not sure how far my government has colluded with the Sudanese government. As far as I know, not at all - hence more sadness than anger at that terrible affair. Though I shall no longer be surprised if we find out differently. Perhaps if we had not over extended ourselves in two different wars, we might have been in some sort of position to interfere. Though I doubt we would have - no strategic benefit to us. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
And to a great extent we in the West are culpable for what is happening in Gaza. I'm not sure how well that holds with regard to the situation in Darfur. |
Oh, c'mon. You're not going to even try to make the case that the West is to blame? You're slipping, Big Bird. |
The US and the EU colluded in the dreadful embargo that has caused such despair and misery, malnutrion among children, and even fatalities. It is a cruel and disgusting policy, and surely a crime. Anyone with an ounce of compassion who has read in any detail about the effects of this medieaval siege on Gaza can only come away saddened and appalled that this situation has been allowed to continue for 2 and a half years. I feel angry that my government supported this policy.
Not only that, it seems the West, and certainly the US gave their tacit backing to the latest bombardment of the world's biggest prison camp. The US and the UK have also done a great job of continually supplying the equipment and bombs that continue to kill innocents in the territories and so recently killed 400 kids. We can really pat ourselves on the back.
I"m not sure how far my government has colluded with the Sudanese government. As far as I know, not at all - hence more sadness than anger at that terrible affair. Though I shall no longer be surprised if we find out differently. Perhaps if we had not over extended ourselves in two different wars, we might have been in some sort of position to interfere. Though I doubt we would have - no strategic benefit to us. |
See? There you go. I knew you could do it. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
And to a great extent we in the West are culpable for what is happening in Gaza. I'm not sure how well that holds with regard to the situation in Darfur. |
Oh, c'mon. You're not going to even try to make the case that the West is to blame? You're slipping, Big Bird. |
The US and the EU colluded in the dreadful embargo that has caused such despair and misery, malnutrion among children, and even fatalities. It is a cruel and disgusting policy, and surely a crime. Anyone with an ounce of compassion who has read in any detail about the effects of this medieaval siege on Gaza can only come away saddened and appalled that this situation has been allowed to continue for 2 and a half years. I feel angry that my government supported this policy.
Not only that, it seems the West, and certainly the US gave their tacit backing to the latest bombardment of the world's biggest prison camp. The US and the UK have also done a great job of continually supplying the equipment and bombs that continue to kill innocents in the territories and so recently killed 400 kids. We can really pat ourselves on the back.
I"m not sure how far my government has colluded with the Sudanese government. As far as I know, not at all - hence more sadness than anger at that terrible affair. Though I shall no longer be surprised if we find out differently. Perhaps if we had not over extended ourselves in two different wars, we might have been in some sort of position to interfere. Though I doubt we would have - no strategic benefit to us. |
See? There you go. I knew you could do it. |
That was just the brief version.  |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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'Rape the women, kill the children': ex-Sudanese soldier recalls Darfur raid
Video interview with Sudanese soldier, plus written article.
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Sudan's president, Omar al-Bashir, is the first sitting head of state to face accusations of war crimes and crimes against humanity allegedly committed in Darfur.
Bashir has always insisted that the international community has exaggerated the scale of the crisis and has described the conflict in the region as a "traditional conflict over resources � coated with claims of marginalisation".
The Sudanese government admits mobilising "self-defence militias" after rebel attacks in 2003 but denies any links to the Janjaweed, which has been accused of trying to "cleanse" black Africans from large swaths of territory. But according to Kajabier, the Sudanese government did not just arm the Janjaweed; it sent army troops to take part in the attacks.
According to human rights groups, Sudanese government forces and government-backed militias have committed crimes against humanity and war crimes on a massive scale in Darfur. Human Rights Watch says Sudanese troops and militias attacked civilian populations from land and air and carried out widespread summary execution, rape, torture and pillaging of property.
Kajabier, who still has nightmares and has to take pills to go to sleep, says the worst images are those of children being raped.
"That will always stay with me," said Kajabier, who also described how his fellow soldiers were forced to commit rape. After what he has witnessed, he fully supports moves by the international criminal court to arrest Bashir.
"If they arrest him today, it will be good," he said, "The people of Sudan have suffered so much." |
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sharkey
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| no one cares about darfur or sudan or wherever this crap is happening because there is no money to be made there .. so no one cares ... you think we would allow this type of restlessness in countries with oil ? newppp |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| sharkey wrote: |
| no one cares about darfur or sudan or wherever this crap is happening because there is no money to be made there .. so no one cares ... you think we would allow this type of restlessness in countries with oil ? newppp |
So, you're saying Sudan has no oil?
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sharkey
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| sharkey wrote: |
| no one cares about darfur or sudan or wherever this crap is happening because there is no money to be made there .. so no one cares ... you think we would allow this type of restlessness in countries with oil ? newppp |
So, you're saying Sudan has no oil?
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it has oil, thats why the chinese are so interested .. usa has their oil locked up, thus they dont care |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| sharkey wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| sharkey wrote: |
| no one cares about darfur or sudan or wherever this crap is happening because there is no money to be made there .. so no one cares ... you think we would allow this type of restlessness in countries with oil ? newppp |
So, you're saying Sudan has no oil?
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it has oil, thats why the chinese are so interested .. usa has their oil locked up, thus they dont care |
So, to be clear, you don't know what you're talking about.
Talisman Energy divested from Sudan and then Sinopec moved in. The genocide in Sudan has been the cause of a great amount of discussion, sanctions and aid.
I suppose you're saying that because the United States doesn't invade, ergo "Americans" don't care. |
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Axl Rose
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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On a particularly memorable occasion, Christopher Hitchens dished out the severest of ass-whuppings to Noam Chomsky. The latter put forth the unforgivable absurdity that the deliberate slaughter of 3,000 people on September 11th, 2001, and other acts if Islamic mass murder, defensibly follow from Clinton's bombing of that pharmaceutical factory.
I haven't felt the need to read anything by Chomsky since.
I don't know why I was surprised when I discovered that the Sudanese govt's Darfur genocide recieved the full support of all Arab governments. 1400 years later, 270 million killed (and those are only the Kufr), and the world still hasn't realized with the appropriate level of seriousness who, and what, the enemy really is. |
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