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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: UK population must fall to 30m, says Porritt |
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JONATHON PORRITT, one of Gordon Brown�s leading green advisers, is to warn that Britain must drastically reduce its population if it is to build a sustainable society.
Porritt�s call will come at this week�s annual conference of the Optimum Population Trust (OPT), of which he is patron.
The trust will release research suggesting UK population must be cut to 30m if the country wants to feed itself sustainably.
Porritt said: �Population growth, plus economic growth, is putting the world under terrible pressure.
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�Each person in Britain has far more impact on the environment than those in developing countries so cutting our population is one way to reduce that impact.�
Population growth is one of the most politically sensitive environmental problems. The issues it raises, including religion, culture and immigration policy, have proved too toxic for most green groups.
However, Porritt is winning scientific backing. Professor Chris Rapley, director of the Science Museum, will use the OPT conference, to be held at the Royal Statistical Society, to warn that population growth could help derail attempts to cut greenhouse gas emissions.
Rapley, who formerly ran the British Antarctic Survey, said humanity was emitting the equivalent of 50 billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere each year.
�We have to cut this by 80%, and population growth is going to make that much harder,� he said.
Such views on population have split the green movement. George Monbiot, a prominent writer on green issues, has criticised population campaigners, arguing that �relentless� economic growth is a greater threat.
Many experts believe that, since Europeans and Americans have such a lopsided impact on the environment, the world would benefit more from reducing their populations than by making cuts in developing countries.
This is part of the thinking behind the OPT�s call for Britain to cut population to 30m � roughly what it was in late Victorian times.
Britain�s population is expected to grow from 61m now to 71m by 2031. Some politicians support a reduction.
Phil Woolas, the immigration minister, said: �You can�t have sustainability with an increase in population.�
The Tory leader, David Cameron, has also suggested Britain needs a �coherent strategy� on population growth.
Despite these comments, however, government and Conservative spokesmen this weekend both distanced themselves from any population policy. � |
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5950442.ece
Good luck with that. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Many experts believe that, since Europeans and Americans have such a lopsided impact on the environment, the world would benefit more from reducing their populations than by making cuts in developing countries. |
This is the most idiotic seriously widespread idea held by 'experts' in a long, long time. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
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| Many experts believe that, since Europeans and Americans have such a lopsided impact on the environment, the world would benefit more from reducing their populations than by making cuts in developing countries. |
This is the most idiotic seriously widespread idea held by 'experts' in a long, long time. |
Not really, it's a known fact that a person in the developed world consumes on average 10 times the energy of a child in a developing country over their lifetime. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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I've been reading about this for the past few hours. The most surprising thing thus far has been David Suzuki's (for those who don't know, he is Canada's leading public environmentalist) statement about immigration:
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| The opportunity for a country like Canada is that we are hyperconsumers. After all, population impact is a function of number and consumption per person. The challenge for Canada is to stop this crazy notion that we've got to keep the economy growing by adding more people. Canadians are having less than 2 children per couple so to keep the economy climbing, we bring more and more people from low consuming countries and convert them to high consumers. This is nuts. |
http://ecologicalcrash.blogspot.com/2008/10/david-suzuki-privately-admits-canadas.html
I've never seen this nexus of environmental and immigration policy before. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I've never seen this nexus of environmental and immigration policy before. |
Actually, there is a whole tendency of Malthusian environmentalists who are also critical of liberal immigration policy. Paul Ehrlich is probably the most famous.
link |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| I think that if western countries consumed energy much more efficiently than they are at present there would be ample opportunity for further growth. A few years back I recall reading somewhere how people in Norway were able to maintain the same standard of living as that of the US despite only using 1/3 of the energy. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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For Mises...
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| EARTH DAY CO-FOUNDER (DAVID BROWER) THOUGHT IMMIGRATION HAD TO BE Curbed AND POPULATION STABILIZED |
That's from an anti-immigration website, but I've known about this tendency for awhile, from other sources.
Garrett Hardin was another guy along these lines, though he is more identified with the racist right, I think. Certainly, Suzuki would have disagreed with him on linking race to intelligence. |
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gazz
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe a Hitler esk type situation will evolve in the UK.
I for one will not have blacks and Jews at the top of my list, no!
When I take over the UK in a couple of years time my first policy will be to deport or to take the 'final solution' on all Manchester United fans and gingers!
The Ginger Manchester united fans will be first!!! |
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Neil
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:26 am Post subject: |
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[/quote]I've never seen this nexus of environmental and immigration policy before.[/quote]
There's a far right European political tradition which has always espoused 'Green' beliefs. Its all tied up with notions of nationalism and blood. Its more pronounced in mainland Europe with all this 'Volk' stuff. But when the BNP membership list was leaked online a few months back it was noticable how many members had defected from the Green party.
The left, whose rise has been primarily due to the urbanised trade union movement, has no tradition of promoting green policies and has only really tried to hijack that side of things as a way of continuing the fight against capitalism after the collapse of the Berlin Wall. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| The left, whose rise has been primarily due to the urbanised trade union movement, has no tradition of promoting green policies and has only really tried to hijack that side of things as a way of continuing the fight against capitalism after the collapse of the Berlin Wall. |
That might be true, to some extent, though as someone born in 1968, I did have a pretty clear impression, prior to the collapse of the Berlin Wall, that the environment was a cause generally promoted by people on the left. Granted, things might have been a bit different in North America than in Europe. |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
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| Many experts believe that, since Europeans and Americans have such a lopsided impact on the environment, the world would benefit more from reducing their populations than by making cuts in developing countries. |
This is the most idiotic seriously widespread idea held by 'experts' in a long, long time. |
How so?
I can understand the logic behind it, but I would counter with saying that people in the west are also more likely to be educated about the environment and are more likely to have the resources to invest in research so the rest of the world doesn't repeat our mistakes.
But that's the west as a whole. The average Joe in the west has a lifestyle, which if emulated by everybody in the world would spell disaster.
It's no secret that we are currently drawing down the worlds natural capital: biodiversity, virgin forests, topsoil, resources such as oil and minerals, fresh water, fish stocks, natural CO2 sequestration and so on. This path is unsustainable. That should be fraking obvious.
What we do about it is another question entirely. |
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The evil penguin
Joined: 24 May 2003
Location: Doing something naughty near you.....
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| gazz wrote: |
Maybe a Hitler esk type situation will evolve in the UK.
I for one will not have blacks and Jews at the top of my list, no!
When I take over the UK in a couple of years time my first policy will be to deport or to take the 'final solution' on all Manchester United fans and gingers!
The Ginger Manchester united fans will be first!!! |
But the carrot brigade are already a dying breed.... you mean to kick them in the burning bush while there are already down? Come on... And Manchester???? anything named after bedsheets can hardly be a threat. No.... the REAL evil out there is Hello Kitty.
The insidious spread of this big headed girly moggy thing to the west- now THAT'S cause for hate crimes and zero tolerance. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| So, in the leftist ideological cage match between environmentalism and multiculturalism, multiculturalism has won? |
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