|
Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:07 am Post subject: The belief that the wealthy are worthy is waning |
|
|
Michael Hiltzik:
The belief that the wealthy are worthy is waning
With financial crisis and scandal as backdrop, Americans are questioning whether plutocrats are either indispensable or deserving.
Michael Hiltzik
March 19, 2009
The notion that the poor always will be with us has been ingrained in our culture ever since the sermons of Moses were set down by the anonymous author of Deuteronomy.
The financial crisis of the present day raises a rather different issue, however: What should we do about the rich?
millionaire.
That mind-set has all but been eradicated by the damage sustained by the average worker's nest egg, combined with the spectacle of bankers and financial engineers maintaining their lifestyles with multimillion-dollar bonuses while the submerged 99% struggle for oxygen.
(The price of admission to the top 1% income-earning club last year was roughly $400,000.) That may account for the near-total absence of public outcry over President Obama's proposal to raise tax rates on the wealthiest Americans -- except of course from the wealthiest Americans.
One factor fueling the public fury over the AIG bonuses, so inescapably in the news this week, is the recognition that so many huge fortunes landed in the hands of the undeserving rich. Some of them added little value to the economy but merely moved money around in novel, excessively clever and ultimately destructive ways; others are corporate executives who were ridiculously overpaid whether they succeeded or failed at their jobs.
It won't be long now, moreover, before Americans again wise up to the role of dumb luck in building wealth. By my count, roughly one-quarter of the names on the Forbes list of the 400 richest Americans got there by inheritance (and by no means have all of them enhanced the family fortune with their own toil or brainpower). A few years ago, it was common to think of the rich as a special breed. We may soon come around to George Orwell's view that the only difference between rich and poor is income -- "The average millionaire," as he put it, "is only the average dishwasher dressed in a new suit."
The shift in sentiment should surprise no one. As the management sage Peter Drucker once predicted, "In the next economic downturn there will be an outbreak of bitterness and contempt for the super-corporate chieftains who pay themselves millions. In every major economic downturn in U.S. history the 'villains' have been the 'heroes' during the preceding boom." Drucker was speaking in 1997, two downturns ago.
This brings us to a couple of questions certain to become more pressing as we stagger through the fiscal and economic hangover from the Roaring Oughty-Oughts: How much does our economy depend on the rich, anyway, and why shouldn't we soak them good?
A bit of history will be useful here. The original case for a progressive income tax -- that is, one levied disproportionately on larger incomes -- was based less on raising revenue for the state than breaking up concentrations of wealth, inherited and otherwise. The nation's Founding Fathers considered these to be undemocratic -- markers of "an aristocratic society, not a free and virtuous republic," as the tax-law expert Dennis Ventry has written.
Recent events validate the Founders' instincts. The craze for financial deregulation in Washington was fomented in part by Wall Street plutocrats brandishing lavish political donations, gifts, offers of employment and other trappings of economic power. Would Wall Street have gotten so far out of control if it had had less power to wield? No one can know for sure, but it's a question worth pondering.
There's also a social value in suppressing income inequality. In a country with only a slightly less ingrained tradition of civility than the United States, the AIG affair would provoke rioting in the streets.
"We live in a country with tranquillity and good feelings toward each other, and that's precious," says Robert Shiller, a Yale University economist and coauthor of "Animal Spirits," a new book about the psychology of economics. In the current crisis, "there's anger and a sense of injustice taking hold, and it's not in the interest of wealthy people -- you don't want people on the poor side of town to be angry with you."
By the way, maintaining the civic institutions, police forces and public infrastructure that enable great fortunes to be made and kept costs money. Wealthy taxpayers should keep that in mind the next time they're inclined to bellyache about not getting anything from government.
As a rationale for progressive taxation, the concept of regulation and redistribution eventually yielded to the quest for revenue. Taxing large incomes was justified because that's where the money is, and, secondarily, a rich person suffers less in giving up a dollar than does a poor one.
The inflection point was the Roosevelt administration. FDR kept talking about the justice of chipping away at "great accumulations of wealth," but he also needed the money. The overall average tax bite on the richest Americans reached its high-water mark of nearly 59% during World War II.
After that, even though marginal rates (the amounts charged on the last dollars) remained as high as 91%, the average tax bite on the rich fell to as little as 25% in the early '60s, largely the result of their skill in exploiting loopholes. Starting with Ronald Reagan, federal income tax policy came to focus mostly on finding the rate that could produce the most revenue while provoking the minimum squawking from the wealthy chickens being plucked.
Those squawks sometimes take the form of a claim that too much taxation saps the economic value of the wealthy -- their capacity to invest, to create jobs, etc. It's proper to note that years of study have unearthed no consistent evidence that taxation causes the rich to alter their investing behavior much, at least not until their tax burden reaches a point vastly higher than what Obama contemplates.
"The real rich -- the top 1% -- work very hard for reasons other than money," Reuven S. Avi-Yonah, a tax historian at the University of Michigan, told me this week. The quest for prestige, political power and self-esteem, the ability to control things and people, are all factors in their behavior.
Thanks to the financial crisis, those goals are regarded with increasing hostility by the political establishment. Certainly the claim of the rich to play an indispensable role in the American economy will be treated with more skepticism than in the recent past, and their ability to preserve their loopholes and other advantages in the tax code will diminish.
Will the economy suffer as a result? The experiment is about to begin.
Michael Hiltzik's column appears Mondays and Thursdays. Reach him at [email protected] and read his previous columns at www.latimes.com/hiltzik.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik19-2009mar19,0,351773.column?track=rss |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
The majority of wealthy people didn't earn their wealth through nefarious means the way a small percentage of the guys on Wall St did. All wealth is created through brains and good old fashioned sweat and toil. Therefore one group of people being richer than you doesn't make you worse off. It just makes you a petty, jealous little cretin who will stay poor his whole life because of his self-limiting attitudes towards wealth.
Most people who are "rich", got that way because they are wealthy in ways that attract riches. Which doesn't just include money.
99% of the ambivalence towards wealthy people is jealousy. Pure and simple. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
The majority of wealthy people didn't earn their wealth through nefarious means the way a small percentage of the guys on Wall St did. All wealth is created through brains and good old fashioned sweat and toil. Therefore one group of people being richer than you doesn't make you worse off. It just makes you a petty, jealous little cretin who will stay poor his whole life because of his self-limiting attitudes towards wealth.
Most people who are "rich", got that way because they are wealthy in ways that attract riches. Which doesn't just include money.
99% of the ambivalence towards wealthy people is jealousy. Pure and simple. |
 |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Robot_Teacher
Joined: 18 Feb 2009 Location: Robotting Around the World
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
Not new news to me. I haven't ever believed most are worthy of having all that excess money as many just get it through inheritance, nepotism, and corrupt business practices. For years, we've had so many executives and politicians who aren't qualified nor the right people for the leadership job of highly entrusted responsibility while qualified people with integrity get turned away upon graduating college with solid credentials.
Of course, there are some who are self made millionaires by dilegent commitment to providing a product or service that turned out lucrative handsome earnings. That's called earning it, but it's tough to get an opportunity like that or just plain dumb luck of a situation to fall in. Many of the older folks were positioned in an economy that supported wealth building so they just have it and are now passing it down to Gen X and Y who get all this old money. Doesn't feel good when my friends got their college EDU paid for, mortgage notes paid off, and put into business, because they're dads are retired business professionals, engineers, and other unionized career jobbers while I struggled way through, borrowed all this money to go to school, still rather poor, and don't see much opportunity nor pay off. It's inequitable as they come and the reason for this is why the current economic crisis is taking place which has actually been setup in the works for a couple decades.
I'm ready for a big change... |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
blade wrote: |
Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
The majority of wealthy people didn't earn their wealth through nefarious means the way a small percentage of the guys on Wall St did. All wealth is created through brains and good old fashioned sweat and toil. Therefore one group of people being richer than you doesn't make you worse off. It just makes you a petty, jealous little cretin who will stay poor his whole life because of his self-limiting attitudes towards wealth.
Most people who are "rich", got that way because they are wealthy in ways that attract riches. Which doesn't just include money.
99% of the ambivalence towards wealthy people is jealousy. Pure and simple. |
 |
I don't see much chance of reasoned, enlightened debate here. So I will leave you to your pity party, gentlemen. Good luck with that.
Hey, Sojourner (Robot-Teacher), welcome back brother, you always were a sappy blighter. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
I don't see much chance of reasoned, enlightened debate here.
|
Funny, this is exactly what I thought when I read your original reply. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
blade wrote: |
Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
I don't see much chance of reasoned, enlightened debate here.
|
Funny, this is exactly what I thought when I read your original reply. |
You havn't actually said anything yet. Maybe you posted that article to demonstrate how retarded it is. Maybe we are on the same page about wealth. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
RJjr

Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Location: Turning on a Lamp
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't see anything wrong with someone inheriting wealth from their parents. There's nothing wrong with that.
It's when the wealthy use the government as a tool to take my money away from me and given to them is when I start getting pissed off very quickly. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: |
The majority of wealthy people didn't earn their wealth through nefarious means the way a small percentage of the guys on Wall St did. |
Would you care to demonstrate that claim through academic studies and statistics? Or is this just a claim based on bias? Would you care to explain how being poor is just the result of moral poverty while you are at it?
I will wait for your reply. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: |
I don't see anything wrong with someone inheriting wealth from their parents. There's nothing wrong with that.
|
Is this how you defend the claim of Prince Charles to moral and financial superiority? Are the graduates of Choate and 'Inner City Slum School' REALLY on a flat playing field?
Really? |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Quote: |
The majority of wealthy people didn't earn their wealth through nefarious means the way a small percentage of the guys on Wall St did. |
Would you care to demonstrate that claim through academic studies and statistics? Or is this just a claim based on bias? Would you care to explain how being poor is just the result of moral poverty while you are at it?
I will wait for your reply. |
You don't need academic studies to understand the logic behind the claim I made. Our long ago ancestors didn't build what we have today by shuffling sticks and stones around and trading the derivitives of boulders. They created wealth and the wealth we have today had to come from some where. Basically the sweat of our ancestors brows.
I don't think it is an unreasonable claim. Maybe you would like to demonstrate to me with statistics and academic studies why all people with wealth are bad and should be punished for trying to lve a fruitful life.
You also make it sound like I said poor people are poor because of their own "moral poverty". I was more referring to the OP and the author of his article.
I will restate my claim. Most people who are wealthy didn't get that way by ripping off others or some how taking what is rightfully mine or yours. It's not a zero sum game. One person being rich doesn't automatically make me poorer. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
blade wrote: |
Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
I don't see much chance of reasoned, enlightened debate here.
|
Funny, this is exactly what I thought when I read your original reply. |
You havn't actually said anything yet. Maybe you posted that article to demonstrate how retarded it is. Maybe we are on the same page about wealth. |
Maybe I posted it give the likes of you the chance to show how retarded you are  |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
blade wrote: |
Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
blade wrote: |
Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
I don't see much chance of reasoned, enlightened debate here.
|
Funny, this is exactly what I thought when I read your original reply. |
You havn't actually said anything yet. Maybe you posted that article to demonstrate how retarded it is. Maybe we are on the same page about wealth. |
Maybe I posted it give the likes of you the chance to show how retarded you are  |
 |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Quote: |
The majority of wealthy people didn't earn their wealth through nefarious means the way a small percentage of the guys on Wall St did. |
Would you care to demonstrate that claim through academic studies and statistics? Or is this just a claim based on bias? Would you care to explain how being poor is just the result of moral poverty while you are at it?
I will wait for your reply. |
You don't need academic studies to understand the logic behind the claim I made. Our long ago ancestors didn't build what we have today by shuffling sticks and stones around and trading the derivitives of boulders. They created wealth and the wealth we have today had to come from some where. Basically the sweat of our ancestors brows. |
The wealth came from somewhere alright but not from you think it came from. It's a simple fact of life wealth generally attracts more wealth. Why, because wealthy people get to write the tax laws which benefit themselves and believe me they don't line up to tax themselves. If you're rich you can send your children to university without forcing them to take on lots of student loans debt which in turn means that your children don't have spend years paying it all back while others to get the benefit of education straight away.
Last edited by blade on Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
blade wrote: |
Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Quote: |
The majority of wealthy people didn't earn their wealth through nefarious means the way a small percentage of the guys on Wall St did. |
Would you care to demonstrate that claim through academic studies and statistics? Or is this just a claim based on bias? Would you care to explain how being poor is just the result of moral poverty while you are at it?
I will wait for your reply. |
You don't need academic studies to understand the logic behind the claim I made. Our long ago ancestors didn't build what we have today by shuffling sticks and stones around and trading the derivitives of boulders. They created wealth and the wealth we have today had to come from some where. Basically the sweat of our ancestors brows. |
The wealth came from somewhere alright but not from you think it came from. It's a simple fact of life wealth generally attracts more wealth. Why, because wealthy people get to right the tax laws and believe me they don't line to tax themselves. If you're rich you can send your university without forcing them to take on lots of student debt which in turn allows your kids a head start in life while everyone else is still struggling. You also probably know other wealthy people who will employ or marry your offspring and hence another leg up that children of poorer families don't have. |
So, what's your solution to the "problem"? Confiscate wealth from people? How much? Who should decide? Who does the wealth get redistributed to?
So basically you want to drag everyone down to your level? I would reccomend focussing on your own backyard and don't worry so much about what your neighbor is doing. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|