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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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 Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: Grammar question - infinitive - "helped" |
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I have a class where I have to teach some grammar. I don't know grammar so it's a little tough but I can usually figure it out. We're doing a bit on infinitives and the word "help" can be a bare or to-infinitive. Easy enough to understand. My problem is the example has "helped" as an example of the bare infinitive. I thought it was a mistake in the book, but I looked it up and there a lot of examples online using sentences with "helped" as an example of the infinitive.
Why is an -ed verb included in the infinitive? |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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Goku
Joined: 10 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a simple clear explanation:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/internet-grammar/verbs/infin.htm
Ultimately it's the word hadchanges the meaning
So instead of I had cooked is the infinitive form
Whereas, I cooked is the past form
| Quote: |
The verb form writing in [1] is known as the -ing form, or the -ING PARTICIPLE form. In [2], the verb form produced is called the -ed form, or -ED PARTICIPLE form.
Many so-called -ed participle forms do not end in -ed at all:
The film was written by John Brown
The film was bought by a British company
The film was made in Hollywood
All of these forms are called -ed participle forms, despite their various endings. The term "-ed participle form" is simply a cover term for all of these forms.
The -ed participle form should not be confused with the -ed inflection which is used to indicate the past tense of many verbs. |
[/quote] |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Goku wrote: |
Here's a simple clear explanation:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/internet-grammar/verbs/infin.htm
Ultimately it's the word hadchanges the meaning
So instead of I had cooked is the infinitive form
Whereas, I cooked is the past form
| Quote: |
The verb form writing in [1] is known as the -ing form, or the -ING PARTICIPLE form. In [2], the verb form produced is called the -ed form, or -ED PARTICIPLE form.
Many so-called -ed participle forms do not end in -ed at all:
The film was written by John Brown
The film was bought by a British company
The film was made in Hollywood
All of these forms are called -ed participle forms, despite their various endings. The term "-ed participle form" is simply a cover term for all of these forms.
The -ed participle form should not be confused with the -ed inflection which is used to indicate the past tense of many verbs. |
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This makes sense but that isn't what I asked about at all. 
To clarify the question, why is an -ed past tense verb used as an example of the infinitive in my book and on several websites?
An easy example would be:
"Can you help me do this?"
"Can you help me to do this?"
They are both correct so in this case the "to" is optional. But the example in my book is "Managers helped team members prepare for the annual inspection scheduled for next week." This is supposed to be an example of a bare infinitive. It does work with a "to" before prepare, but can it be the infinitive with an -ed ending? |
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Cerriowen
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Location: Pocheon
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:48 am Post subject: |
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errr... not a grammar expert, but in all those situations the "to" infinitive is not related to the help, but to the verb following it. (to cook, to prepare)
Also... Could they be talking about "helped" infinitive in the phrasing "It can't be helped?" |
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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Draz wrote: |
| Goku wrote: |
Here's a simple clear explanation:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/internet-grammar/verbs/infin.htm
Ultimately it's the word hadchanges the meaning
So instead of I had cooked is the infinitive form
Whereas, I cooked is the past form
| Quote: |
The verb form writing in [1] is known as the -ing form, or the -ING PARTICIPLE form. In [2], the verb form produced is called the -ed form, or -ED PARTICIPLE form.
Many so-called -ed participle forms do not end in -ed at all:
The film was written by John Brown
The film was bought by a British company
The film was made in Hollywood
All of these forms are called -ed participle forms, despite their various endings. The term "-ed participle form" is simply a cover term for all of these forms.
The -ed participle form should not be confused with the -ed inflection which is used to indicate the past tense of many verbs. |
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This makes sense but that isn't what I asked about at all.
To clarify the question, why is an -ed past tense verb used as an example of the infinitive in my book and on several websites?
An easy example would be:
"Can you help me do this?"
"Can you help me to do this?"
They are both correct so in this case the "to" is optional. But the example in my book is "Managers helped team members prepare for the annual inspection scheduled for next week." This is supposed to be an example of a bare infinitive. It does work with a "to" before prepare, but can it be the infinitive with an -ed ending? |
It seems to me that you've misinterpreted your book. If a verb is inflected for tense (which "helped" is), then it, by definition, is not an infinitive. In the example you gave, "prepare" is the bare infinitive of the sentence. I think the matter in question here is not which INFINITE verbs can BE bare infinitives, but which INFLECTED verbs can YIELD a subsequent bare infinitive. Because, really, any verb can be a bare infinitive in a certain context. For example, with the structure "I can X", X can be replaced by any English verb (except other modals).
So it seems to me that what your book is trying to express is the fact that "help" is one of the verbs that, when inflected, can yield a subsequent bare infinitive.
This is true of many such verbs that involve either causation or permission.
Examples:
"He MADE her jump."
"They HELPED me pack."
"She LET me leave." |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| Cerriowen wrote: |
Also... Could they be talking about "helped" infinitive in the phrasing "It can't be helped?" |
Those are both past participle examples. The bare infinitive is just the infinitive without "to". Perhaps the text was talking about auxiliary verbs and the verb forms that can follow. When you use most auxiliary verbs, the bare infinitive is used in conjunction. However, with "be" or "have", participles can also be used.
Last edited by greedy_bones on Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| lichtarbeiter wrote: |
It seems to me that you've misinterpreted your book. If a verb is inflected for tense (which "helped" is), then it, by definition, is not an infinitive. In the example you gave, "prepare" is the bare infinitive of the sentence. I think the matter in question here is not which INFINITE verbs can BE bare infinitives, but which INFLECTED verbs can YIELD a subsequent bare infinitive. Because, really, any verb can be a bare infinitive in a certain context. For example, with the structure "I can X", X can be replaced by any English verb (except other modals).
So it seems to me that what your book is trying to express is the fact that "help" is one of the verbs that, when inflected, can yield a subsequent bare infinitive.
This is true of many such verbs that involve either causation or permission.
Examples:
"He MADE her jump."
"They HELPED me pack."
"She LET me leave." |
I'd go with this one. Good call, lichtarbeiter. |
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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| greedy_bones wrote: |
| lichtarbeiter wrote: |
It seems to me that you've misinterpreted your book. If a verb is inflected for tense (which "helped" is), then it, by definition, is not an infinitive. In the example you gave, "prepare" is the bare infinitive of the sentence. I think the matter in question here is not which INFINITE verbs can BE bare infinitives, but which INFLECTED verbs can YIELD a subsequent bare infinitive. Because, really, any verb can be a bare infinitive in a certain context. For example, with the structure "I can X", X can be replaced by any English verb (except other modals).
So it seems to me that what your book is trying to express is the fact that "help" is one of the verbs that, when inflected, can yield a subsequent bare infinitive.
This is true of many such verbs that involve either causation or permission.
Examples:
"He MADE her jump."
"They HELPED me pack."
"She LET me leave." |
I'd go with this one. Good call, lichtarbeiter. |
Thanks! Word of advice to people interested in this stuff: don't take a kindy/elementary hagwon job like I did. What a waste.  |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| lichtarbeiter wrote: |
Thanks! Word of advice to people interested in this stuff: don't take a kindy/elementary hagwon job like I did. What a waste. |
I'm going with this one. Thanks! It's definitely possible that I misinterpreted the book since all the explanations are in Korean.  At least now I won't look like a complete moron when I "explain" it.
I'm not that interested in this stuff, but I'm not NOT interested either. I don't mind it. |
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