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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject: North Korea, Again |
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| Those zany North Koreans really need to be delt with. An underdeveloped nation under the influence of a troublesome regime like North Korea actively trying to turn itself into a dangerous, credible nuclear threat is not something any of the current powers in the world should be accepting. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:11 am Post subject: Re: North Korea, Again |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Those zany North Koreans really need to be delt with. An underdeveloped nation under the influence of a troublesome regime like North Korea actively trying to turn itself into a dangerous, credible nuclear threat is not something any of the current powers in the world should be accepting. |
The world has no spine. NK will whine and moan and rattle its sabres, until it gets more concessions.
Its been that way since the end ofthe Korean war and i doubt itll change soon. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:29 am Post subject: |
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he world has no spine. NK will whine and moan and rattle its sabres, until it gets more concessions.
Its been that way since the end ofthe Korean war and i doubt itll change soon |
Well, that's why Bush did not want to deal directly with the Norks. He wanted to put them in the spotlight with the 6 nation talks.
It will be this way until China and Russia stop allowing them to throw a few jabs at the world.
I kind of figure that Russia and China (and the Norks....probably much of South Korea as well.......lets face it..not too much difference between them) are daring the U.S. or any other Western power to really put their foot down and take a stance.
Sanctions don't hurt the government......they only hurt the people of the government.
I say it is time for serious action........AFTER one more round of diplomacy.
dmbfan |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: |
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The world has no spine. NK will whine and moan and rattle its sabres, until it gets more concessions.
Its been that way since the end ofthe Korean war and i doubt itll change soon. |
What real, I repeat, real, alternatives does anyone have? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
The world has no spine. NK will whine and moan and rattle its sabres, until it gets more concessions.
Its been that way since the end ofthe Korean war and i doubt itll change soon. |
What real, I repeat, real, alternatives does anyone have? |
Invest in the system and it will happen. Kind of like the Kevin Costner movie.
That is the real alternative. There is NO other. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
The world has no spine. NK will whine and moan and rattle its sabres, until it gets more concessions.
Its been that way since the end ofthe Korean war and i doubt itll change soon. |
What real, I repeat, real, alternatives does anyone have? |
An international military response perhaps?
North Korea can't threaten to restart nuclear facilities if UN member nations bomb those facilities into the ground.
and then, if necessary, in the conflict that could ensue depending upon north koreas reaction, overthrow the North Korean govt. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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An international military response perhaps?
North Korea can't threaten to restart nuclear facilities if UN member nations bomb those facilities into the ground.
and then, if necessary, in the conflict that could ensue depending upon north koreas reaction, overthrow the North Korean govt. |
I'm not convinced either China or Russia would sit still for any kind of military response, international or not. As I see it, it is in their long-term national interest to eliminate American presence from East Asia. Any move that would bring a formal American ally (South Korea) up to their national borders would be opposed. I also don't see any interest in South Korea risking another war with the North and it is South Korea that would have to bear the risk of any Nork resistance to a bombing. I don't see the political will in the present administration nor do I hear anything indicating a public will to take that kind of risk. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Why is this a problem that the "world" (meaning the West) must deal with? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Why is this a problem that the "world" (meaning the West) must deal with? |
South Korea and Japan are both trading partners and allies. Allowing North Korea to become progressively more of a threat to them isn't wise. Allowing the further proliferation of nuclear technology by a nation like North Korea is also not wise for any current power, even if that power is located in the West.
Talking about the world in terms of cultural pockets like the West, the East, the Muslim World, etc is useful, but things that happen in one such cultural pocket do in fact affect the rest of us as well. The situation in the East affects the West, and thus can warrant action from the West. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Let China deal with it. We have our own problems. The United States can no longer afford to run around policing third worlders. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Let China deal with it. We have our own problems. The United States can no longer afford to run around policing third worlders. |
If the reality was that China was willing to step up and deal with this issue entirely on its own, I would whole heartedly agree with you. Because that is not the reality, I find myself feeling otherwise. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| And maybe they're free-riding here eh? The US keeps her whole back yard stable. The US keeps her shipping lanes stable and safe. The US does the heavy lifting all over Asia. Maybe China is behaving how a state being given a free ride would likely behave? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| And maybe they're free-riding here eh? The US keeps her whole back yard stable. The US keeps her shipping lanes stable and safe. The US does the heavy lifting all over Asia. Maybe China is behaving how a state being given a free ride would likely behave? |
I think that oversimplifies the case at hand. China's adversion to direct action against North Korea more likely stems from the same source as its adversion to increased sanctions against North Korea in the United Nations and its continual decision to send financial aid to North Korea than a desire to "free-ride off of United States military policing."
Consider this for instance:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gD6Evbk9phJ1v2HTRwHQ6S4g-R4g
China's judgment is clearly clouded on the matter. They believe with aid and favorable trade they can encourage North Korea towards stability without direct action, but if anything their aid is making things worse on that account. None the less, I don't think it's fair to categorize them in the fashion you are doing so. They're clearly trying to invest in regional stability, they're just doing so in a misguided fashion that isn't working. North Korea's political philosophy prevents true reform while the current regime is in power. For whatever reason, China either isn't grasping that or is turning a blind eye to it.
In the West, we have two choices:
1) Allow a hostile nation with an insane political philosophy to continue letting its citizenry live in poverty while threatening our allies in the region and continue development of long range nuclear weaponry.
2) Begin to take steps towards resolution of this situation.
That's the reality of the situation, regardless of what you might wish China or Russia would do. You and many other Westerners are a proponent of choice 1, but I think people are increasingly feeling choice 2 might be, unfortunately, necessary for the stability and safety of our allies in the region, as well as global stability. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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The Western allies in the region are more than able to handle the DPRK on their own.
But anyways. America is flat fucking broke. It doesn't matter what IR/SS theory we're going to use here. At bottom, balance sheets are power, and the Americans need to return home and take care of their own for a while. |
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