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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:24 am Post subject: Holding China to Account- Paul Krugman |
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Holding China to Account
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: October 2, 2011
Ask yourself: Why is it so hard to restore full employment? It�s true that the housing bubble has popped, and consumers are saving more than they did a few years ago. But once upon a time America was able to achieve full employment without a housing bubble and with savings rates even higher than we have now. What changed?
The answer is that we used to run much smaller trade deficits. A return to economic health would look much more achievable if we weren�t spending $500 billion more each year on imported goods and services than foreigners spent on our exports.
To get our trade deficit down, however, we need to make American products more competitive, which in practice means that we need the dollar�s value to fall in terms of other currencies. Yes, some people will shriek about �debasing� the dollar. But sensible policy makers have long known that sometimes a weaker currency means a stronger economy, and have acted on that knowledge. Switzerland, for example, has intervened massively to keep the franc from getting too strong against the euro. Israel has intervened even more forcefully to weaken the shekel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/03/opinion/holding-china-to-account.html?src=me&ref=general |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Krugman is wrong on about every point.
Yes, in raw terms, the Chinese currency appears undervalued. But when adjusted for purchase power parity, the yuan is pretty level with the dollar. That is even while China holds $3 trillion in dollar reserves; which Krugman wrongly suggests is currency manipulation (I call it valid monetary policy).
Secondly, tariffs on Chinese goods alone, to be substantial, would probably violate GATT-WTO, and would be illegal. Let's remember that the Hawley-Smoot tariff, enacted in 1930, was a disaster. I expect a trade war with China could get ugly, too. |
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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote: |
Krugman is wrong on about every point.
Yes, in raw terms, the Chinese currency appears undervalued. But when adjusted for purchase power parity, the yuan is pretty level with the dollar. That is even while China holds $3 trillion in dollar reserves; which Krugman wrongly suggests is currency manipulation (I call it valid monetary policy).
Secondly, tariffs on Chinese goods alone, to be substantial, would probably violate GATT-WTO, and would be illegal. Let's remember that the Hawley-Smoot tariff, enacted in 1930, was a disaster. I expect a trade war with China could get ugly, too. |
I think others have stated that the Yuan (Renminbi) is purposely kept low by China. I don't think tariffs would work with China, either, considering how connected the two economies are at this point. I am not sure how one can reduce imports. However, when the US currency did become lower in value, I believe imports did decrease. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:44 am Post subject: |
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The yuan/dollar exchange rate and America's trade deficit with China
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Rather than a cheap yuan leading to a flood of Chinese imports, the yuan has actually strengthened as the deficit has widened. There are many things American companies dislike about the way business is done in China: intellectual-property theft, the impossibility of winning government contracts, baffling rules on corporate ownership and so on. However the place for fixing these things is the World Trade Organisation, not Congress. President Obama's administration has already passed on two opportunities to label China a currency manipulator, out of a well-founded fear of sparking a trade war. Senators should do the same. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote: |
Krugman is wrong on about every point.
Yes, in raw terms, the Chinese currency appears undervalued. But when adjusted for purchase power parity, the yuan is pretty level with the dollar. That is even while China holds $3 trillion in dollar reserves; which Krugman wrongly suggests is currency manipulation (I call it valid monetary policy).
Secondly, tariffs on Chinese goods alone, to be substantial, would probably violate GATT-WTO, and would be illegal. Let's remember that the Hawley-Smoot tariff, enacted in 1930, was a disaster. I expect a trade war with China could get ugly, too. |
Wow! Relying entirely on the relative prices of Big Macs to indicate whether the Yuan is fairly valued. That's too incredibly simplistic for my taste . Krugman is right. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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jaykimf wrote: |
Kuros wrote: |
Krugman is wrong on about every point.
Yes, in raw terms, the Chinese currency appears undervalued. But when adjusted for purchase power parity, the yuan is pretty level with the dollar. That is even while China holds $3 trillion in dollar reserves; which Krugman wrongly suggests is currency manipulation (I call it valid monetary policy).
Secondly, tariffs on Chinese goods alone, to be substantial, would probably violate GATT-WTO, and would be illegal. Let's remember that the Hawley-Smoot tariff, enacted in 1930, was a disaster. I expect a trade war with China could get ugly, too. |
Wow! Relying entirely on the relative prices of Big Macs to indicate whether the Yuan is fairly valued. That's too incredibly simplistic for my taste . Krugman is right. |
Actually, you've just argued against Krugman. He uses the simplistic "item price vs item price" system to say that, because a given item is cheaper in China than the U.S., the Yuan must be undervalued.
Kuros' link points out that when you evaluate the currency based on the average income, the price of an item in China is nearly the same as the price of that item in the United States. Put simply, an item like a Big Mac is cheaper in China because the average income is lower, not because the Yuan is undervalued. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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It seems to me it is not just trade imbalance, it is foreign investment. At one time, American capitalists invested in America as international investments were much more risky, America is all many people knew and there was a sense of patriotism - to make America a better place. Today, much, much more is invested outside of the U.S. sending jobs and capital elsewhere.
This is why from a macro-level, the U.S. economy seems fine. American businesses continue to make moeny, even record amounts of money. The problem is that few American citizens can take advantage of the success of American companies because a certain amount of the profits are made overseas.
America cannot be the America of the past in the age of Globalism. Americans are either going to have to accept a lower standard of living or else they are going to have to move elsewhere or they are going to have to change the way they tax American businesses and individuals that invest overseas.
It will be real interesting to see how American leadership deals with this problem and how Americans choose their leaders and make choices to deal with the situation. My bet is against the American people. Americans (in general) are too proud in my opinion. They would rather accept less and say it is their free choice than to demand more. American leaders don't care much about the lives of everyday people; they just want another paycheck from the moneyed interest that fills their "warchests" for the next election. And, teapartiers and occupiers are not going to make a hill of beans of difference and the politicians know it.
Good luck is all I've got to say. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Unposter wrote: |
It seems to me it is not just trade imbalance, it is foreign investment. At one time, American capitalists invested in America as international investments were much more risky, America is all many people knew and there was a sense of patriotism - to make America a better place. Today, much, much more is invested outside of the U.S. sending jobs and capital elsewhere. |
That's true enough. But I don't see how slapping China with ILLEGAL punitive measures helps. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I agree.
As I wrote in my previous post, I see the possible solutions as:
Americans are either going to have to accept a lower standard of living or else they are going to have to move elsewhere or they are going to have to change the way they tax American businesses and individuals that invest overseas.
I wouldn't doubt there are other ways of dealing with it but that is all I can think of off the top of my head. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote: |
Unposter wrote: |
It seems to me it is not just trade imbalance, it is foreign investment. At one time, American capitalists invested in America as international investments were much more risky, America is all many people knew and there was a sense of patriotism - to make America a better place. Today, much, much more is invested outside of the U.S. sending jobs and capital elsewhere. |
That's true enough. But I don't see how slapping China with ILLEGAL punitive measures helps. |
Who says they are illegal? (besides you) |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:58 am Post subject: |
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jaykimf wrote: |
Kuros wrote: |
Unposter wrote: |
It seems to me it is not just trade imbalance, it is foreign investment. At one time, American capitalists invested in America as international investments were much more risky, America is all many people knew and there was a sense of patriotism - to make America a better place. Today, much, much more is invested outside of the U.S. sending jobs and capital elsewhere. |
That's true enough. But I don't see how slapping China with ILLEGAL punitive measures helps. |
Who says they are illegal? (besides you) |
Besides me, the Chinese allege it will be illegal, but Obama is also concerned that the bill may be illegal.
Quote: |
China has warned that the currency bill "seriously violates rules of the World Trade Organization and obstructs China-U.S. trade ties." It now appears that President Obama shares these concerns with the Chinese. The president has not said whether or not he will sign the bill if it passes through Congress, but despite his misgivings about the bill, he has chastised Chinese economic policies. |
Also check out this CRS .pdf Currency Manipulation: The IMF and WTO.
China Currency Bill passes the Senate |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote: |
jaykimf wrote: |
Kuros wrote: |
Unposter wrote: |
It seems to me it is not just trade imbalance, it is foreign investment. At one time, American capitalists invested in America as international investments were much more risky, America is all many people knew and there was a sense of patriotism - to make America a better place. Today, much, much more is invested outside of the U.S. sending jobs and capital elsewhere. |
That's true enough. But I don't see how slapping China with ILLEGAL punitive measures helps. |
Who says they are illegal? (besides you) |
Besides me, the Chinese allege it will be illegal, but Obama is also concerned that the bill may be illegal.
Quote: |
China has warned that the currency bill "seriously violates rules of the World Trade Organization and obstructs China-U.S. trade ties." It now appears that President Obama shares these concerns with the Chinese. The president has not said whether or not he will sign the bill if it passes through Congress, but despite his misgivings about the bill, he has chastised Chinese economic policies. |
Also check out this CRS .pdf Currency Manipulation: The IMF and WTO.
China Currency Bill passes the Senate |
"Whether currency disputes fall under the WTO�s jurisdiction is a debatable issue. The WTO rules
specify that countries may not provide subsidies to help promote their national exports. Most
analysts agree that an undervalued currency lowers a firm�s cost of production relative to world prices and therefore helps to encourage exports. It is questionable, however, where currency
undervaluation is an export subsidy under the WTO�s current definition of the term."
"If a country believes another country has violated WTO rules,
to its detriment, it may request the appointment of a dispute settlement panel to hear its
complaint. The other country cannot veto the establishment of a panel or adoption of a WTO
decision by WTO members. The panel reviews the arguments in the case and renders judgment
based on the facts and WTO rules. If the losing party does not comply with the ruling within a
reasonable period of time, the WTO may, if requested by the complaining party, authorize it to
impose retaliatory measures (usually increased customs duties) against the offending country or
to take other appropriate retaliatory measures against that country�s trade." Your source: http://www.policyarchive.org/handle/10207/bitstreams/20107_Previous_Version_2010-01-26.pdf
China can allege whatever they want but until the WTO actually makes a ruling, the question is as your source states , debatable. "Is a violation of WTO rules" and "Might be a violation Of WTO rules" are not quite the same thing. |
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weso1
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, there are actually people here that think they're smarter than a Nobel Prize winning economist?
Where is your PhD in economics from again? Where are your dozen of peer reviewed papers on the topic? Where are your 36 books written on economics? Exactly how many university textbooks have you published? |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:18 am Post subject: |
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weso1 wrote: |
Wow, there are actually people here that think they're smarter than a Nobel Prize winning economist? |
That's the same thing I say when I talk about the 2011 winner supporting the gold standard... However, unlike the issues of climate change and evolution, there are PhD holders on both sides of this economics issue. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: |
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weso1 wrote: |
Wow, there are actually people here that think they're smarter than a Nobel Prize winning economist?
Where is your PhD in economics from again? Where are your dozen of peer reviewed papers on the topic? Where are your 36 books written on economics? Exactly how many university textbooks have you published? |
How ignorant.
He didn't win his Nobel for his NYTimes Op-Eds. He won them for his academic work: "By having integrated economies of scale into explicit general equilibrium models, Paul Krugman has deepened our understanding of the determinants of trade and the location of economic activity."
What did Aristotle say about the appeal to authority? Its the weakest form of argumentative proof. |
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