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Capo
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
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 Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: Headline: US 'bomb gang extremely violent' - Not terrorists? |
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US 'bomb gang extremely violent'
Four men accused of plotting to bomb New York synagogues and fire missiles at aircraft have been described as "extremely violent men" by prosecutors.
Charged with weapons and conspiracy charges at their first court appearance, they were detained until 5 June for a preliminary hearing.
They were arrested after planting what they allegedly thought were bombs at two synagogues.
Prosecutor Eric Snyder said they were "eager to bring death to Jews".
'Best target'
James Cromitie (also known as Abdul Rahman), David Williams (aka Daoud and DL), and Onta Williams (aka Hamza) appeared together in shackles at court in White Plains, New York.
Mr Snyder said Mr Cromitie had "complained" that the "best target" - the World Trade Center destroyed on September 11, 2001 - had already been targeted.
The fourth man, Laguerre Payen (aka Amin and Almondo), appeared later in court, with a bandage on his head.
Mr Payen's lawyer Marilyn Reader said he had been injured during his arrest.
She also said he suffered from schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and could not read or write in English.
He is a Haitian citizen, and the other three are Americans.
Before the court hearing, New York Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly, visiting one of the synagogues, said all four "wanted to commit jihad".
The men had allegedly agreed to buy explosives from FBI agents posing as Islamic militants.
The four are charged with conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction within the US and conspiracy to acquire and use anti-aircraft missiles, officials said.
The charges carry jail terms of between 25 years and life imprisonment.
A senior FBI official in New York said three were US citizens and one was from Haiti.
BBC defence and security correspondent Rob Watson says the case appears to be a classic sting operation against suspected home-grown militants rather than a plot with any links to known international terrorism.
'No risk'
Speaking outside the Riverdale Temple, one of the intended targets, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg praised the work of New York's police and the FBI.
The alleged plot served as a reminder to New Yorkers to remain vigilant "at all times", the mayor said.
"The bottom line is that we have to be constantly vigilant and we have to constantly be sure that we have the best police department in the world, that they are well led and well trained."
Mr Kelly, the police commissioner, stressed that the arrests were the result of a lengthy operation and that despite the serious nature of the charges, no-one was ever actually put at risk.
According to prosecutors, the men planned to detonate cars packed with C-4 plastic explosives outside the Riverdale Temple and the Riverdale Jewish Center in the Bronx district of the city.
They also intended to target military planes at the New York Air National Guard base at Stewart Airport, 60 miles (85 km) north of New York City.
In their efforts to obtain weapons for the attack, the men dealt with an informant from the FBI, who is said to have provided the group "with an inactive missile and inert explosives."
"This was a very tightly-controlled operation but these individuals did place bombs - or what they thought were bombs - right in front of the building in which we are standing and the temple a few blocks away," Mr Kelly said.
'Sought weapons'
Outlining the charges on Wednesday night, law enforcement officials said the group set up what they believed to be 30lbs (14kg) of explosives.
According to prosecutors, Mr Cromitie told an FBI informant in June 2008 that he was angry over the US-led war in Afghanistan.
He "expressed an interest in 'doing something to America"'.
From October 2008, the informant began meeting him regularly along with the four others at a house in which the FBI had concealed video and audio equipment.
The group allegedly "expressed desire" to attack targets in New York and Mr Cromitie "asked the informant to supply surface-to-air guided missiles and explosives", prosecutors say.
In April 2009, the group agreed on the synagogues they intended to attack and proceeded to conduct surveillance, including taking photographs of the warplanes at the military base, prosecutors say.
Mr Cromitie allegedly pointed out Jews in the street, saying "if he had a gun, he would shoot each one in the head", according to the district attorney's statement.
According to the statement, he told the informant that attacking the Jewish community centre would be a "piece of cake".
He also said he would be interested in joining Jaish-e-Mohammed - a Pakistan-based group considered a terrorist organisation by Washington - "to do jihad".
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/8061772.stm
Published: 2009/05/21 21:39:25 GMT
� BBC MMIX |
Sounds like classic terrorists to me.... |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly if the word terrorist disappeared from the Earth I don't think I would care.
Islamism and Violent Extremism or perhaps all those words together are good enough terms. |
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Capo
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| my point is that the media seems to connect terrorist only with muslims in the middle east, where as these are home grown terrorists from america so the term is not used. It is also not associated with jewish settlers attacking Palestinians in the occupied territories, but any action taken by a palestinian is a terrorist act. |
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Patrick Bateman
Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Location: Lost in Translation
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Capo wrote: |
| my point is that the media seems to connect terrorist only with muslims in the middle east, where as these are home grown terrorists from america so the term is not used. It is also not associated with jewish settlers attacking Palestinians in the occupied territories, but any action taken by a palestinian is a terrorist act. |
While the word 'terrorist' is pretty trite and cliche, the proper use of the word almost unanimously requires a case where:
1. Terror (in the form of violence and threats of death) is used to influence people and government.
2. To violently prevent from occurring, governmental or economic activities.
It is unclear whether or not these people were attempting to do that since they were targeting Jews, a religious and ethnic group. If they were, then the media can call them a 'terrorist' if that even has any affect other than consistency.
The problem all stems from motive and intent, which is always hard to gauge. How much of what happens in the Middle East is driven by religious instead of political reasons, or vis-versa? Given how entrenched the two are in the region, I'd say that's a pretty tall order to sort out. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I've seen them referred to as "terrorists" virtually everywhere, less the BBC. Which isn't surprising. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Headline: US 'bomb gang extremely violent' - Not terrori |
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| Capo wrote: |
| Sounds like classic terrorists to me.... |
They were entrapped into a crime they would not otherwise have committed. |
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mole
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:47 am Post subject: Re: Headline: US 'bomb gang extremely violent' - Not terrori |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Capo wrote: |
| Sounds like classic terrorists to me.... |
They were entrapped into a crime they would not otherwise have committed. |
That's why I still haunt Dave's Korea.
The occasional eye-opener like this.  |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Headline: US 'bomb gang extremely violent' - Not terrori |
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| mole wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Capo wrote: |
| Sounds like classic terrorists to me.... |
They were entrapped into a crime they would not otherwise have committed. |
That's why I still haunt Dave's Korea.
The occasional eye-opener like this. |
They were recruited by FBI informants, and provided with explosives, albeit phony, by them.
Are you able to verbalize an objection to this formulation? |
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mole
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Headline: US 'bomb gang extremely violent' - Not terrori |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| mole wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Capo wrote: |
| Sounds like classic terrorists to me.... |
They were entrapped into a crime they would not otherwise have committed. |
That's why I still haunt Dave's Korea.
The occasional eye-opener like this. |
They were recruited by FBI informants, and provided with explosives, albeit phony, by them.
Are you able to verbalize an objection to this formulation? |
Maybe, but since I'm agreeing with you, I'm not gonna try.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the story. As I read a more detailed account, I was wondering:
IF these guys had been under surveillance and a load of evidence had been gathered against them and
IF they just needed a sting operation to catch them in the act, why did it take a YEAR??
Why did the agent initiate the whole deal from scratch?
Then I fell into the sheeple trap. Yes, even *I* occasionally do.
The FBI can do no wrong. The suspects are evil. How could I have doubted? Shame on me.
I was just intrigued that someone else had the same thoughts as me. Kinda rare. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Headline: US 'bomb gang extremely violent' - Not terrori |
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| mole wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| mole wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Capo wrote: |
| Sounds like classic terrorists to me.... |
They were entrapped into a crime they would not otherwise have committed. |
That's why I still haunt Dave's Korea.
The occasional eye-opener like this. |
They were recruited by FBI informants, and provided with explosives, albeit phony, by them.
Are you able to verbalize an objection to this formulation? |
Maybe, but since I'm agreeing with you, I'm not gonna try.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the story. As I read a more detailed account, I was wondering:
IF these guys had been under surveillance and a load of evidence had been gathered against them and
IF they just needed a sting operation to catch them in the act, why did it take a YEAR??
Why did the agent initiate the whole deal from scratch?
Then I fell into the sheeple trap. Yes, even *I* occasionally do.
The FBI can do no wrong. The suspects are evil. How could I have doubted? Shame on me.
I was just intrigued that someone else had the same thoughts as me. Kinda rare. |
Yes, it is rare that anyone has the same thoughts as I do, too.
Sorry I took you the wrong way. Glad we are on the same page. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Capo wrote: |
| my point is that the media seems to connect terrorist only with muslims in the middle east, where as these are home grown terrorists from america so the term is not used. It is also not associated with jewish settlers attacking Palestinians in the occupied territories, but any action taken by a palestinian is a terrorist act. |
Right. Terrorist is a political term, because it resists precise definition. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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BA Caspar has brought an interesting point to the discussion. Now I dont defend his seeing a conspirancy in every issue. but he does raise interesting points.
Much of terrorism is done because of political situation which is why terrorists is a political word.
If you ae blown up by a bomb , I dont think the motivation matters much.
At this point it seems lives have been saved, much more important than arguing how the media covers the story. Or are semantics more important than lives. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
If you ae blown up by a bomb , I dont think the motivation matters much.
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If you are blown up by a bomb, you dont think the motivation (a death cult, based on an infallible book, promising sex with virgins in Heaven) matters much?
If that's really your belief, I can only assume you're religious, leftwing or both. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| BA Caspar has brought an interesting point to the discussion. Now I dont defend his seeing a conspirancy in every issue. but he does raise interesting points. |
Thanks for the compliment, but it does not give you the right to simultaneously slander me.
The "conspiracy" epithet is usually a sign of intellectual laziness, or worse, cowardice, or hypocrisy in that one refuses to address the facts placed before one, or does not label those conspiracies in which one believes as "conspiracy theories."
I document just about everything I post, but frequently instead of addressing facts I present, I just get the epithet.
So man up, face the facts, and let's do what is required. |
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lithium
Joined: 18 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Capo wrote: |
| my point is that the media seems to connect terrorist only with muslims in the middle east, where as these are home grown terrorists from america so the term is not used. It is also not associated with jewish settlers attacking Palestinians in the occupied territories, but any action taken by a palestinian is a terrorist act. |
The Jews are only defending themselves. What should they do after 100s of rockets are fired upon them by the Palestinians? The Jews have a right to their land; it was given to them long ago by God. That's right....I said it! |
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