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eac02
Joined: 23 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: grammar quest... "what if there were no water?" |
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I feel like an idiot for having to ask this and maybe I am but...
Sentences from my MS 3rd grade textbook
"what if there were no water?"
"what if there were no subway in seoul?"
1. I think it should read: "what if there was no water?" I'm I correct in thinking this?
2. Should it be "were no subway" or "was no subway"? "Was no subway" sounds better to me. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I believe you're discussing the subjunctive mood. As the link indicates, were is the correct form of the verb. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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What you've stumbled upon is the subjunctive mood in English.
Modern usage tends to be as you say..
What if I was a genius?
But in fact many (especially older) grammar books will say that
"were" is the proper form to be used.
What if I were a genius? I would get a real job.  |
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refikaM
Joined: 06 May 2006
Location: Gangwondo
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: subjunctive |
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In this case, the subjunctive is used in "unreal" conditional sentences... Meaning the condition is not the reality.. If reality is a possibility, then the subjunctive is not used:
"Bob isn't at the concert, but, if he were at the concert, he would have a good time". (present situation - not reality)
"Was Bob at the concert last night?"
"I don't know for sure, but he was there, I'm sure he had a good time." (past situation - reality possible) |
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refikaM
Joined: 06 May 2006
Location: Gangwondo
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: subjunctive |
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In this case, the subjunctive is used in "unreal" conditional sentences... Meaning the condition is not the reality.. If reality is a possibility, then the subjunctive is not used:
"Bob isn't at the concert, but, if he were at the concert, he would have a good time". (present situation - not reality)
"Was Bob at the concert last night?"
"I don't know for sure, but if he was there, I'm sure he had a good time." (past situation - reality possible) |
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tonyvu
Joined: 30 May 2008
Location: busan - a view of dadaepo beach from my office window
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: grammar quest... "what if there were no water?" |
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| eac02 wrote: |
I feel like an idiot for having to ask this and maybe I am but...
2. Should it be "were no subway" or "was no subway"? "Was no subway" sounds better to me. |
You could also say "what if there were no subways in Seoul?" |
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Johnny_Bravo
Joined: 27 May 2009
Location: R.O.K.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:05 am Post subject: Re: grammar quest... "what if there were no water?" |
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| eac02 wrote: |
I feel like an idiot for having to ask this and maybe I am but...
Sentences from my MS 3rd grade textbook
"what if there were no water?"
"what if there were no subway in seoul?"
1. I think it should read: "what if there was no water?" I'm I correct in thinking this?
2. Should it be "were no subway" or "was no subway"? "Was no subway" sounds better to me. |
ask yourself the following.
which options would you use?
a) if I was you
b) if I were you
if your answer is a, you've been learning English-ee "on the streets" too much.
the subjunctive is rarely used in English, but you have to be able to recognize it when necessary. As noted.. if you see an "if" clause and an impossible condition, your antennae should go up.
you'll have fun when you learn a language such as Spanish, which has subjunctive tenses in the present, past and future, ALL with different conjugations, whereas in English the was/were combo is the only one that comes to mind. |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: Re: subjunctive |
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| refikaM wrote: |
In this case, the subjunctive is used in "unreal" conditional sentences... Meaning the condition is not the reality.. If reality is a possibility, then the subjunctive is not used:
"Bob isn't at the concert, but, if he were at the concert, he would have a good time". (present situation - not reality)
"Was Bob at the concert last night?"
"I don't know for sure, but if he was there, I'm sure he had a good time." (past situation - reality possible) |
excellent explanation! |
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Johnny_Bravo
Joined: 27 May 2009
Location: R.O.K.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: grammar quest... "what if there were no water?" |
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| tonyvu wrote: |
| eac02 wrote: |
I feel like an idiot for having to ask this and maybe I am but...
2. Should it be "were no subway" or "was no subway"? "Was no subway" sounds better to me. |
You could also say "what if there were no subways in Seoul?" |
I don't think so. I've never heard of subway used in a plural sense this way. It typically refers to a subway system.. a specific subway system, therefore making it and keeping it a singular noun.
on the other hand.. you could say what if there were no subway trains in Seoul... because now the focus noun is train. |
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tonyvu
Joined: 30 May 2008
Location: busan - a view of dadaepo beach from my office window
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: grammar quest... "what if there were no water?" |
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| Johnny_Bravo wrote: |
| tonyvu wrote: |
| eac02 wrote: |
I feel like an idiot for having to ask this and maybe I am but...
2. Should it be "were no subway" or "was no subway"? "Was no subway" sounds better to me. |
You could also say "what if there were no subways in Seoul?" |
I don't think so. I've never heard of subway used in a plural sense this way. It typically refers to a subway system.. a specific subway system, therefore making it and keeping it a singular noun.
on the other hand.. you could say what if there were no subway trains in Seoul... because now the focus noun is train. |
true. |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| I believe you're discussing the subjunctive mood. As the link indicates, were is the correct form of the verb. |
Subjunctive in English is optional.
That said, this is NOT subjunctive. Required on TOEFL
It is obligatory that he use subjunctive. (This is subjunctive)
The if there were thing is conditional.
In English you use the base form of a verb for subjunctive.
The origines most likely come from the influence of French on the evolution of the English language.
1. What would we do if there were no subway.
1. Que ferait-on s'il n'y avait pas de metro? (Conditional)
2. It is important that he be on time.
2. Il est important qu'il soit a l'heure. (Subjunctive)
If you know a romance language then you will know when to use it in English.
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| I believe you're discussing the subjunctive mood. As the link indicates, were is the correct form of the verb. |
Subjunctive in English is optional.
That said, this is NOT subjunctive. Required on TOEFL
It is obligatory that he use subjunctive. (This is subjunctive)
The if there were thing is conditional.
In English you use the base form of a verb for subjunctive.
The origines most likely come from the influence of French on the evolution of the English language.
[b]1. What would we do if there were no subway.
1. Que ferait-on s'il n'y avait pas de metro? (Conditional)
2. It is important that he be on time.
2. Il est important qu'il soit a l'heure. (Subjunctive)
If you know a romance language then you will know when to use it in English.
[/b] |
KC is making a good point about conditionals.
However...in the example...
What would we do if there were no subway.
This is conditional....and subjunctive.
Just for those who might have been confused by that.
The subjunctive is often used in hypothetical situations...which has been mentioned already.
Wether the indicative or subjunctive is used depends on the shift from real/unreal to hypothetical situations. |
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Johnny_Bravo
Joined: 27 May 2009
Location: R.O.K.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: |
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I never worry about whether something is subjunctive (or not) in ENGLISH because I only care if it affects the conjugation.
In English, as far as I know the I/he/she /were combo is the only example where the conjugation changes from the regular in such an event and only with the conditional if clause.
anyone else know of other conjugations are affected?
in some Romance languagues, the use of the subjunctive is far more widespread, beyond just impossible hypotheticals and conjugation is affected for every single verb, which can make it a nightmare for English speakers learning it. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:29 am Post subject: |
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J.B. that is an insightful comment.
The subjunctive tense is devolutionizing for that very reason.
In the UK the subjunctive tense is already on the way out...it is still a bit common in American English....but probably not for much longer.
As for other conjugations....there are countless verbs that will take the subjunctive conjugation as opposed to just indicative.
K.C gave an example above....but it didn't actually change the conjugation...although it did take the subjunctive.
As for the change....here is a couple where the conjugation does change...the subjunctive mood in cases of importance.
It is important he own that house by Monday.
It is important he practice all day.
Again...these are not common...and may very well be on the way out of the English grammar lexicon in the near future. |
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Johnny_Bravo
Joined: 27 May 2009
Location: R.O.K.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
J.B. that is an insightful comment.
The subjunctive tense is devolutionizing for that very reason.
In the UK the subjunctive tense is already on the way out...it is still a bit common in American English....but probably not for much longer.
As for other conjugations....there are countless verbs that will take the subjunctive conjugation as opposed to just indicative.
K.C gave an example above....but it didn't actually change the conjugation...although it did take the subjunctive.
As for the change....here is a couple where the conjugation does change...the subjunctive mood in cases of importance.
It is important he own that house by Monday.
It is important he practice all day.
Again...these are not common...and may very well be on the way out of the English grammar lexicon in the near future. |
I would never construct those sentences that way without using a "THAT" in front the pronoun (he).
and even then they just sound bizarre and I'd figure out a way to state it differently. |
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