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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:14 am Post subject: Men Live Better Where Women Are In Charge |
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Men Live Better Where Women Are In Charge
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How does a matriarchy really work? Argentinian writer Ricardo Coler decided to find out and spent two months with the Mosuo in southern China. "Women have a different way of dominating," the researcher told SPIEGEL ONLINE.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Mr. Coler, you are from Argentina, where macho behavior is not exactly unheard of. What was it like living for two months in the matriarchical society of the Mosuo in China?
Coler: I wanted to know what happened in a society where women determine how things are done. How do women tick when, from birth onwards, their societal position allows them to decide everything? We men know what a man is, we put that together quickly -- but what constitutes a woman? Although, I didn't get any wiser on that point.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Is Mosuo society a paradise for feminists?
Coler: I had expected to find an inverse patriarchy. But the life of the Mosuo has absolutely nothing to do with that. Women have a different way of dominating. When women rule, it's part of their work. They like it when everything functions and the family is doing well. Amassing wealth or earning lots of money doesn't cross their minds. Capital accumulation seems to be a male thing. It's not for nothing that popular wisdom says that the difference between a man and a boy is the price of his toys.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: What is life like for a man in a matriarchy?
Coler: Men live better where women are in charge: you are responsible for almost nothing, you work much less and you spend the whole day with your friends. You're with a different woman every night. And on top of that, you can always live at your mother's house. The woman serves the man and it happens in a society where she leads the way and has control of the money. In a patriarchy, we men work more -- and every now and then we do the dishes. In the Mosuo's pure form of matriarchy, you aren't allowed to do that. Where a woman's dominant position is secure, those kinds of archaic gender roles don't have any meaning.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: What astonished you the most?
Coler: That there is no violence in a matriarchal society. I know that quickly slips into idealization -- every human society has its problems. But it simply doesn't make sense to the Mosuo women to solve conflicts with violence. Because they are in charge, nobody fights. They don't know feelings of guilt or vengeance -- it is simply shameful to fight. They are ashamed if they do and it even can threaten their social standing.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: And when there's no solution to a problem?
Coler: Either way, there won't be an altercation. The women decide what happens. Some of them do it more strictly and others in a friendlier way. They are strong women who give clear orders. When a man hasn't finished a task he's been given, he is expected to admit it. He is not scolded or punished, but instead he is treated like a little boy who was not up to the task.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Are men raised to be incompetent?
Coler: For the Mosuo, women are simply the more effective and reliable gender. However, they do say that the "really big" decisions -- like buying a house or a machine or selling a cow -- are made by the men. Men are good for this kind of decision-making as well as physical labor. The official governmental leader of the village, the mayor, is a man. I walked with him through the village -- nobody greated him or paid him any attention. As a man he doesn't have any authority.
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I passed through there a few years ago when I lived in Yunnan. Around that time I stayed far a short time in a small village with a similar culture: the Naxi. They are also a matriarchy. It was interesting. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:48 am Post subject: |
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duplicate post deleted ...
Last edited by Rteacher on Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Doesn't sound like a very spiritually progressive society with men being with different women every night - more like a big brothel run by madames. 
I vaguely recall New Left "guru" Herbert Marcuse's extolling the "pleasure principle" over the "reality principle" (presumably to motivate young revolutionaries...) but real pleasure is not derived from mundane sex - aside from the pleasure-coating on the genitals specifically designed to encourage procreation. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Men Live Better Where Women Are In Charge |
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| Article wrote: |
| Coler: Men live better where women are in charge: you are responsible for almost nothing, you work much less and you spend the whole day with your friends. You're with a different woman every night. And on top of that, you can always live at your mother's house. The woman serves the man and it happens in a society where she leads the way and has control of the money. In a patriarchy, we men work more -- and every now and then we do the dishes. In the Mosuo's pure form of matriarchy, you aren't allowed to do that. Where a woman's dominant position is secure, those kinds of archaic gender roles don't have any meaning. |
Interesting, I don't see how that would constitute living better than in the male-dominated Western World. Let's look at something later in the article:
| Article wrote: |
| However, they do say that the "really big" decisions -- like buying a house or a machine or selling a cow -- are made by the men. Men are good for this kind of decision-making as well as physical labor. The official governmental leader of the village, the mayor, is a man. I walked with him through the village -- nobody greated him or paid him any attention. As a man he doesn't have any authority. |
So men make the major decisions, men do most of the work, the leader of the city is even a man, and best of all, despite doing that they're treated with indifference because even though they make the big decisions and are technically in charge of the city, hey, they're just men, and men can't be authority figures in their culture.
Even this article, which in a clear and decided fashion tries to make this sort of social situation seem good, makes me think worse of it. Living in a state of perpetual minority no matter how valuable your labor or decision making skills are to the community just because of your gender sounds pathetic. Other than the alleged lack of violence, I'm not even seeing how men live better. Sleeping around and spending all day with your friends isn't living better, it's living like a teenager, and getting to live with your mother? I can do that in our society if I like, and there's a reason I don't: it would be horrible.
Yes, if your goal is to bum around with your mates and sleep with women while avoiding all responsibility, sounds like this is the place for you. Otherwise, I don't see how you could possibly construe this as men living better.
Beyond that, a quick glance at Mosou's wikipedia entry leaves me thinking that the article has actually completely misrepresented how matriarchal Mosou culture really is. While women are generally the heads of households at the village peasant level, politically it would seem men actually are in charge in a very real way, and most hilariously the entry claims the matrilineal system was forced upon the peasants of Mosou in order to keep them passive so the patriarchal nobility could easily maintain power.
Now, the section of the wikipedia entry that discusses that is completely lacking in citations, so it may well be untrue, but if it is true, it sounds to me like the Mosou peasantry have simply been bred for docility and slavery. It's hardly surprising a small, homogenous group controlled in that way for so long would not have a lot of internal violence, regardless of the gender of who is in charge. The Mosou sound like a small group bred to be the perfect work horses and never arise as a threat to anyone actually in power, and it sounds like it was a success.
Thanks but no thanks.  |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Wheeee, evidence . . . of the anecdotal variety. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Men Live Better Where Women Are In Charge |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Article wrote: |
| Coler: Men live better where women are in charge: you are responsible for almost nothing, you work much less and you spend the whole day with your friends. You're with a different woman every night. And on top of that, you can always live at your mother's house. The woman serves the man and it happens in a society where she leads the way and has control of the money. In a patriarchy, we men work more -- and every now and then we do the dishes. In the Mosuo's pure form of matriarchy, you aren't allowed to do that. Where a woman's dominant position is secure, those kinds of archaic gender roles don't have any meaning. |
Interesting, I don't see how that would constitute living better than in the male-dominated Western World. Let's look at something later in the article:
| Article wrote: |
| However, they do say that the "really big" decisions -- like buying a house or a machine or selling a cow -- are made by the men. Men are good for this kind of decision-making as well as physical labor. The official governmental leader of the village, the mayor, is a man. I walked with him through the village -- nobody greated him or paid him any attention. As a man he doesn't have any authority. |
So men make the major decisions, men do most of the work, the leader of the city is even a man, and best of all, despite doing that they're treated with indifference because even though they make the big decisions and are technically in charge of the city, hey, they're just men, and men can't be authority figures in their culture.
Even this article, which in a clear and decided fashion tries to make this sort of social situation seem good, makes me think worse of it. Living in a state of perpetual minority no matter how valuable your labor or decision making skills are to the community just because of your gender sounds pathetic. Other than the alleged lack of violence, I'm not even seeing how men live better. Sleeping around and spending all day with your friends isn't living better, it's living like a teenager, and getting to live with your mother? I can do that in our society if I like, and there's a reason I don't: it would be horrible.
Yes, if your goal is to bum around with your mates and sleep with women while avoiding all responsibility, sounds like this is the place for you. Otherwise, I don't see how you could possibly construe this as men living better.
Beyond that, a quick glance at Mosou's wikipedia entry leaves me thinking that the article has actually completely misrepresented how matriarchal Mosou culture really is. While women are generally the heads of households at the village peasant level, politically it would seem men actually are in charge in a very real way, and most hilariously the entry claims the matrilineal system was forced upon the peasants of Mosou in order to keep them passive so the patriarchal nobility could easily maintain power.
Now, the section of the wikipedia entry that discusses that is completely lacking in citations, so it may well be untrue, but if it is true, it sounds to me like the Mosou peasantry have simply been bred for docility and slavery. It's hardly surprising a small, homogenous group controlled in that way for so long would not have a lot of internal violence, regardless of the gender of who is in charge. The Mosou sound like a small group bred to be the perfect work horses and never arise as a threat to anyone actually in power, and it sounds like it was a success.
Thanks but no thanks. |
Good post. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Generally speaking, I'd rather have a woman in charge, although Madame Mao and her Gang of Four didn't work out so well. Still, an exception proving the rule, methinks.
And I can think of at least one Kiwi leftist that would be a disaster. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| And I can think of at least one Kiwi leftist that would be a disaster. |
Are you refering to Helen Clark? |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Nope. Two more strikes and you're out. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| Nope. Two more strikes and you're out. |
I don't know anything about New Zealand politics, so I'm afraid I can't play. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| I wasn't referring to Kiwi politicians but certain fowl who claim to have inhabited the north or south island in recent decades. Are we being a tad bit obtuse? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| I wasn't referring to Kiwi politicians but certain fowl who claim to have inhabited the north or south island in recent decades. Are we being a tad bit obtuse? |
I'm a bit confused. When you say 'certain fowl' am I to understand that you are refering to 'Big_Bird' i.e. moi?
If so, why are you calling me a Kiwi? A kiwi is someone who is a citizen of New Zealand. I haven't even been to New Zealand, never mind claimed its citizenship. I have been to Australia several times, but that doesn't make me a Kiwi. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:59 am Post subject: |
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Pardon my ignorance, BB, but didn't you claim to hail from the other land down under some time ago on this forum? Perhaps I had a "senior moment" there.
If not, then you must be a Brit after all. I do recall you saying that your father was from the UK. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
Pardon my ignorance, BB, but didn't you claim to hail from the other land down under some time ago on this forum? Perhaps I had a "senior moment" there.
If not, then you must be a Brit after all. I do recall you saying that your father was from the UK. |
I was born in the UK, and mostly reared there (on and off). I am a bit of a gypsy, and have lived (or travelled) all over Europe, Asia and Australia. But I've never been to NZ. Though I would love to. I think you have me mixed up with another. |
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