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red_devil
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Location: Korea
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 Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:55 pm Post subject: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment program |
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According to JoongAng Daily, North Korea has publicly announced the existence of an uranium enrichment program. The article goes on to say that conflicting intelligence (but nonetheless intelligence) points out the existence of the program as early as 1994. So 10+ years later we still haven't done anything about it. Will it take a nuclear bomb exploding off the border of Korea for anyone to take N. Korea seriously? How long will the cycle of talks and break offs continue? It's been a great stall technique for N. Korea so far.
Last edited by red_devil on Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| What do you suggest is done? |
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Robot_Teacher
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Location: Robotting Around the World
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Would you believe most South Koreans believe they do not have the capability to beat North Korea should this end up in war? Yep, that's a fact. I beg to differ on that one.
I suspect they already have the bomb, but it's their very last resort as it's the worst move. It appears the old man is getting demented ideas to go out bad with a bang as he prepares to die. Since North Korea worships him and life is centered around this one disgusting dictator man, the country may collapse or self destruct upon his death or near it if know when that is to be. He seems to have this idea that if he has to die, then everyone else should suffer. How demented. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment progra |
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| red_devil wrote: |
| So 10+ years later we still haven't done anything about it. Will it take a nuclear bomb exploding off the border of Korea for anyone to take N. Korea seriously? |
Pretty much, or a full military assault on the South. The indifference of the world to inhumane dictatorships openly developing the most dangerous weapons known to mankind while continuously issuing threats is impressive. Many parties seem to be simply hoping this problem solves itself via regime collapse, and they're gambling an immense amount on it. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment progra |
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| Fox wrote: |
| The indifference of the world to inhumane dictatorships openly developing the most dangerous weapons known to mankind while continuously issuing threats is impressive. |
[Once again] Isn't this based on territorial sovereignty? In the past you weren't allowed to just attack a country without a declaration/action of war - regardless of what society it was. Nuclear war can obviously kill a lot more than 'ordinary' war, but does this necessitate certain countries acting as the world police and judging whether another society can have nukes. Then again, you could argue intervention is valid in the same way it is to stop genocide.
As I've mentioned before, countries haven't done anything because it would be a huge sacrifice.... hundreds of thousands of troops... and I doubt any country would preemptively launch nukes at Pyongyang. There is also time to act later (bombing nuclear facilities) so maybe it's sensible not to ratchet up tension by at least attempting to go through the UN.
The possibility of Kim ordering nukes off while on his death bed is the most worrying scenario. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment progra |
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| RufusW wrote: |
[Once again] Isn't this based on territorial sovereignty? |
A world society which doesn't impose limits on how far territorial sovereignty goes is an unacceptably dangerous world society. There are -- or should be -- limits, and North Korea exceeds them in its behavior.
| RufusW wrote: |
| In the past you weren't allowed to just attack a country without a declaration/action of war - regardless of what society it was. |
Lots of bad things happened in the past. I don't think the past is always a good measure of what the future should be. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment progra |
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| Fox wrote: |
| RufusW wrote: |
[Once again] Isn't this based on territorial sovereignty? |
A world society which doesn't impose limits on how far territorial sovereignty goes is an unacceptably dangerous world society. There are -- or should be -- limits, and North Korea exceeds them in its behavior. |
Sigh. There you go again, pontificating on what is best for other people. Isn't that kind of the ideology that got NK into the mess they find themselves in? NK has as much right to nuclear arms as anyone else. Of course they don't have the right to make threats, but what is anyone doing about it?
| RufusW wrote: |
| In the past you weren't allowed to just attack a country without a declaration/action of war - regardless of what society it was. |
Lots of bad things happened in the past. I don't think the past is always a good measure of what the future should be.[/quote]
Wow. So, you are advocating invading the North? |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment progra |
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| Fox wrote: |
| There are -- or should be -- limits, and North Korea exceeds them in its behavior. |
How has is exceed physical territorial limits? It hasn't invaded anyone. Psychological threats don't affect territorial sovereignty of another country. Also, countries are certainly allowed to destroy NK ships taking nukes to terrorists - for example, that's a defensive right of America, but offense is a different matter.
| Fox wrote: |
| Lots of bad things happened in the past. I don't think the past is always a good measure of what the future should be. |
Yes, you could argue for a preemptive invasion of Nazi Germany.
however, saying a country has the 'right' to attack another in its self interest sets a precedent - one that can be easily abused. There are plenty of countries the (soon to be) most powerful nation in the world, China, might want to attack. This precedent would allow them to attack in support of their worldview, regardless of actual damage done ot their sovereignty.
Rusty, So I presume you don't mind Iran getting nuclear weapons? |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment progra |
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| RufusW wrote: |
Rusty, So I presume you don't mind Iran getting nuclear weapons? |
Haha. No.
I agree with what you said in response to Fox. I think there is a case for invading them, (the Iraq invasion was predicated on less), but like you say, it would set a bad precedent.
I said they have a right to nukes. Not that I like it. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment progra |
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| Fox wrote: |
| The indifference of the world to inhumane dictatorships openly developing the most dangerous weapons known to mankind while continuously issuing threats is impressive. |
There wasn't actually much choice, so long as China kept backing them and propping them up. To attack NK would have been no different to starting a war with China. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment progra |
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| Julius wrote: |
| To attack NK would have been no different to starting a war with China. |
I don't think so, you attack China you get nukes headed for NYC, you attack NK you get China tut tutting. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Meanwhile North Korea threatens South Korea with nuclear war, and the US pledges noisily to defend the South at all costs. Why? The South has lots more population and industry than does the North. If South Korea wants to defend itself, it can. If it doesn�t want to, I don�t care. I�m not Seoul�s mother.
When you enlist in the military you pledge to defend the Constitution. Is it in Korea? I didn�t pay much attention in high-school civics. |
http://fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment progra |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| There are -- or should be -- limits, and North Korea exceeds them in its behavior. |
How has is exceed physical territorial limits? It hasn't invaded anyone. Psychological threats don't affect territorial sovereignty of another country. |
Do we really need to list all of the times the DPRK has intruded on the sovereignty of the ROK? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:07 am Post subject: Re: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment progra |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| There are -- or should be -- limits, and North Korea exceeds them in its behavior. |
How has is exceed physical territorial limits? |
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear: I meant there are -- or should be -- limits with regards to the behavior we tolerate from nations within even their own physical territorial limits.
| RufusW wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Lots of bad things happened in the past. I don't think the past is always a good measure of what the future should be. |
Yes, you could argue for a preemptive invasion of Nazi Germany.
however, saying a country has the 'right' to attack another in its self interest sets a precedent - one that can be easily abused. |
This isn't a court of law, precedents are ultimately irrelevent.
| RufusW wrote: |
| There are plenty of countries the (soon to be) most powerful nation in the world, China, might want to attack. |
And when that time comes, they will act in accordance with what they think is right, just as we should now. The idea that the Chinese will in the future abstain from anything they otherwise would have done just because the United States and its allies showed forebearance on this particular issue is one I find questionable. That goes double given I feel action against North Korea should be taken only with Chinese support. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:10 am Post subject: Re: It's Official, N. Korea has an uranium enrichment progra |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| The indifference of the world to inhumane dictatorships openly developing the most dangerous weapons known to mankind while continuously issuing threats is impressive. |
There wasn't actually much choice, so long as China kept backing them and propping them up. To attack NK would have been no different to starting a war with China. |
China is a part of the world I'm condemning with this statement. |
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