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Required UNPAID Swine Flu "Quarantine"
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WanderingDolphin

Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Location: Seoul

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: Required UNPAID Swine Flu "Quarantine"

Due to the recent swine flu issue, my school just this week started requiring teachers taking vacation anywhere outside of Korea this summer to spend one week after they return not coming to school. Kind of a "quarantine," but not really. Basically just the school covering their asses to look good for the parents. You can still leave your apartment, but just don't come to school and "infect" everyone. I'm going on vacation in July for a week to SE Asia. The part that pisses me off...I made these plans two months ago before any of this happened. And they said this extra week of sitting on my ass in my apartment will be UNPAID. What are my options? I want to tell them to shove it [Mod Edit]. Either they should pay me for the extra week I spend away from the school, or else they should reimburse me the full cost of the airline ticket if I end up cancelling the trip. Since this is my school imposing this rule on us, I feel I shouldn't be losing a week's pay because of it. Especially since I made all these plans before they came up with this new rule. Thoughts? Thanks.

okokok

Joined: 27 Aug 2006

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:13 am Post subject:

Spend an extra week in SE Asia. You're golden. If you must, converse with them by phone. "Yeah, I'm sitting in my apartment now watching 'Gag Concert'. Yup, I agree this quarantine is a great idea for the safety of our school, blah, blah, blah" Meanwhile you'll be sitting on a beach in Sihanoukville. Your one week holiday just turned into two.

ChinaBoy

Joined: 17 Feb 2007

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:18 am Post subject:

I'm thinking about traveling somewhere just so I can get an extra week of vacation when I return

WanderingDolphin

Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Location: Seoul

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject:

okokok wrote:

Spend an extra week in SE Asia. You're golden.

If you must, converse with them by phone. "Yeah, I'm sitting in my apartment now watching 'Gag Concert'. Yup, I agree this quarantine is a great idea for the safety of our school, blah, blah, blah"

Meanwhile you'll be sitting on a beach in Sihanoukville. Your one week holiday just turned into two.

OK, thanks for the suggestion.

However, I'm looking for info related to whether requiring this to be UNPAID is against a standard Korea hagwon contract. Obviously nowhere in my contract does it state anything about unpaid swine flu time off when returning from vacation.

But I also realize hagwon owners can pretty much do anything they want and 'to hell with the spoiled foreign teachers.'

Anyone else know about the contractual part of it? Thanx.

CentralCali

Joined: 17 May 2007

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject:

Here's an idea. Come to work every day anyway. If they fire you, you can then go to the Labor Board for illegal termination. No matter how much the hagweon owners want it to be true, they are not the Korean government. It's the government's job to determine quarantine, not some thief who's looking to cheat his foreign employees.

polonius

Joined: 05 Jun 2004

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject:

CentralCali wrote:

Here's an idea. Come to work every day anyway. If they fire you, you can then go to the Labor Board for illegal termination. No matter how much the hagweon owners want it to be true, they are not the Korean government. It's the government's job to determine quarantine, not some thief who's looking to cheat his foreign employees.

Recently a memorandum was released by the Ministry of Education, which is branch of the government, stated that all precautions should be taken with regards to the swine flu outbreak.

Considering that CDI shut down all 150 of their campuses for 2 weeks because some of their teachers were infected, thus losing billions, I can understand why hagwons are taking this approach.

If you booked your vacation, I think the hagwon should pay for the penalties incurred by cancelling. That is what we have offered to do. If the school offers an extra 5 days paid to quarantine the teachers, all of the teachers will be quick to want the same.

Imagine that if you do return and are infected, thus shutting down the school causing millions in lost revenue. Because you caused the shut down, should they come after you for the lost revenue?

Once CDI was shut down, we received hundreds of phone calls from parents asking us what we were doing to protect the school. Remember that they are the customers and pay your salary. They want to make sure that their children are safe.

Take the vacation and the five extra days off. Sit at home, go out, enjoy yourself. So you aren't getting paid, but you aren't working either. When I announced this to my teachers, they understood, and some wanted to take their vacation just to get the 5 days off without pay.

I started a poll on this, but it has fallen to the second page of the Job related discussions forum.

highdials5

Joined: 13 Oct 2008

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject:

Someone at my hagwon had a few days off after returning from vacation and they simply used his sick days...so he was still paid. Personally, I'm just not going to tell them that I'm going abroad.

CentralCali

Joined: 17 May 2007

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject:

Is it even possible to be more of a hagweon apologist than you are in this post?

polonius wrote:

Recently a memorandum was released by the Ministry of Education, which is branch of the government, stated that all precautions should be taken with regards to the swine flu outbreak.

Right. All legitimate, as in legal, precautions. Refusing to let a healthy worker come to work and refusing to pay him are not legitimate actions.

Quote:

Considering that CDI shut down all 150 of their campuses for 2 weeks because some of their teachers were infected, thus losing billions, I can understand why hagwons are taking this approach.

CDI is, for many more reasons than this one alone, a joke. Who told all of the hagweon directors in that chain to close shop? Was it the government? If you say yes, provide proof or can the apologetics.

Quote:

If you booked your vacation, I think the hagwon should pay for the penalties incurred by cancelling. That is what we have offered to do. If the school offers an extra 5 days paid to quarantine the teachers, all of the teachers will be quick to want the same.

Why wouldn't the teacher want paid time? And why should a perfectly healthy person who isn't trying to avoid work wish to be docked sick days?

Quote:

Imagine that if you do return and are infected, thus shutting down the school causing millions in lost revenue. Because you caused the shut down, should they come after you for the lost revenue?

How about imagine if I return and the government determines that I'm not infected? Why then should your worthless cheating boss refuse to let me come to work?

As I'm in the public school system, I'm not subject to the whims of fearmongers like CDI franchisees.

Quote:

Once CDI was shut down, we received hundreds of phone calls from parents asking us what we were doing to protect the school.

Here's yet another idea: tell them the truth. The government is screening people on their way into the country. And just being foreign doesn't mean someone has that virus.

Quote:

Remember that they are the customers and pay your salary. They want to make sure that their children are safe.

No, they don't. They want to make sure that their children aren't corrupted by their imagined prejudices of Americans. Do you remember the mad cow scare?

If they really wanted their children to be safe, the parents would:

Use car child seats for babies, instead of holding the babies in their arms.
Ensure all passengers, including the children, in the car are using seat belts.
Stop driving on the sidewalks.
Would quit running red lights.
Would teach their children some real safety awareness.

No, safety has nothing to do with it.

Quote:

Take the vacation and the five extra days off. Sit at home, go out, enjoy yourself. So you aren't getting paid, but you aren't working either.

No. If I'm not on paid vacation and I'm not sick, I'm coming to work per the terms of my contract. If my boss refuses to permit me to enter the premises, he's still liable to pay me. If he terminates me, then he's committed an unlawful termination.

Quote:

When I announced this to my teachers, they understood, and some wanted to take their vacation just to get the 5 days off without pay.

Apparently, they didn't understand their rights to be paid per the terms of their contract.

Quote:

I started a poll on this, but it has fallen to the second page of the Job related discussions forum.

Yeah, and quite the scientific poll it is, too. Rolling Eyes

WanderingDolphin

Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Location: Seoul

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject:

polonius wrote:

CentralCali wrote:

Considering that CDI shut down all 150 of their campuses for 2 weeks because some of their teachers were infected, thus losing billions, I can understand why hagwons are taking this approach.

If you booked your vacation, I think the hagwon should pay for the penalties incurred by cancelling. That is what we have offered to do. If the school offers an extra 5 days paid to quarantine the teachers, all of the teachers will be quick to want the same.

Imagine that if you do return and are infected, thus shutting down the school causing millions in lost revenue. Because you caused the shut down, should they come after you for the lost revenue?

Once CDI was shut down, we received hundreds of phone calls from parents asking us what we were doing to protect the school. Remember that they are the customers and pay your salary. They want to make sure that their children are safe.

Take the vacation and the five extra days off. Sit at home, go out, enjoy yourself. So you aren't getting paid, but you aren't working either. When I announced this to my teachers, they understood, and some wanted to take their vacation just to get the 5 days off without pay.

I started a poll on this, but it has fallen to the second page of the Job related discussions forum.

Thanks for trying, but I've decided I'm not cancelling my vacation.

Due to the fact that the hagwon itself imposed this rule (and not the government), the week of quarantine should be a cost of doing business (for those who ALREADY HAD vacation plans, that is).

Yes, I can understand why people who don't currently have vacation scheduled should have unpaid leave. You are right. People would obviously jump on that if they all of the sudden got an extra week of paid vacation.

However, for those of us who ALREADY HAD vacation plans before this happened, we should be PAID for the week off.

My $400 airline ticket is being turned into a $900 ticket now, thanks to gluttonous hagwon directors.

These guys are going to create a mutiny. I will be first in line at the Labor Board if I have to take Unpaid Leave for this.

polonius

Joined: 05 Jun 2004

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject:

CentralCali wrote:

Is it even possible to be more of a hagweon apologist than you are in this post?

polonius wrote:

Recently a memorandum was released by the Ministry of Education, which is branch of the government, stated that all precautions should be taken with regards to the swine flu outbreak.

CentralCali wrote:

Right. All legitimate, as in legal, precautions. Refusing to let a healthy worker come to work and refusing to pay him are not legitimate actions.

The incubation period is 7-10 days. Therefore someone wouldn't know if they were healthy or sick once getting off the plane.

Quote:

Considering that CDI shut down all 150 of their campuses for 2 weeks because some of their teachers were infected, thus losing billions, I can understand why hagwons are taking this approach.

CentralCali wrote:

CDI head office made the decision, not the directors, nor the government. They decided to do this to show that they were pro-active when 10 of their campuses had infections. They decided that it was better to close all their schools so that they wouldn't lose customers. Although, I am sure that they did.

Quote:

CentralCali wrote:

Why wouldn't the teacher want paid time? And why should a perfectly healthy person who isn't trying to avoid work wish to be docked sick days?

Why should a school give out 5 more paid vacation days. And, the perfectly healthy person won't know that they are sick as soon as they get off the plane.

Quote:

Imagine that if you do return and are infected, thus shutting down the school causing millions in lost revenue. Because you caused the shut down, should they come after you for the lost revenue?

CentralCali wrote:

How about imagine if I return and the government determines that I'm not infected? Why then should your worthless cheating boss refuse to let me come to work?

The only way to know if you aren't infected is to ride out the 7-10 days. The boss is protecting his interests, his investments.

CentralCali wrote:

As I'm in the public school system, I'm not subject to the whims of fearmongers like CDI franchisees.

I know that the public schools received the same memo. I would like to know what their policy is. That is why I made a poll. It was meant to ask people the situation that they are in. I am not trying to gather scientific data. I am curious what is happening to other people. I have called some of my contacts in the different sectors and asked them what they thought. Most replies were that they understood asking teachers to stay away from work.

Quote:

Once CDI was shut down, we received hundreds of phone calls from parents asking us what we were doing to protect the school.

CentralCali wrote:

Here's yet another idea: tell them the truth. The government is screening people on their way into the country. And just being foreign doesn't mean someone has that virus.

So you are saying that the screening process is 100% effective. If this were true, then once it was known that there was an outbreak, then it shouldn't have spread to any new countries. It is impossible for the government to tell if someone is infected, unless they take blood samples from everyone that comes into the country.

Quote:

Remember that they are the customers and pay your salary. They want to make sure that their children are safe.

CentralCali wrote:

No, they don't. They want to make sure that their children aren't corrupted by their imagined prejudices of Americans. Do you remember the mad cow scare?

Apples and oranges. I am a father, and you can be sure that I would take all precautions to safeguard my son. Do you honestly believe that Korean parents aren't concerned if their children are coming into contact with what the CDC is calling a pandemic?

Quote:

Take the vacation and the five extra days off. Sit at home, go out, enjoy yourself. So you aren't getting paid, but you aren't working either.

CentralCali wrote:

You are unable to see the other side of the coin.

Quote:

When I announced this to my teachers, they understood, and some wanted to take their vacation just to get the 5 days off without pay.

CentralCali wrote:

Apparently, they didn't understand their rights to be paid per the terms of their contract.

Contracts state that teachers get paid for the time they work. They understand their rights. They understand that the school isn't trying to screw them. They understand that the school is trying to safeguard their school.

Quote:

I started a poll on this, but it has fallen to the second page of the Job related discussions forum.

CentralCali wrote:

Yeah, and quite the scientific poll it is, too. Rolling Eyes

Roll your eyes all you want. I wanted to know what was happening at other schools. I was asking for people's opinion.

You can call me what you want. Having owned and managed several companies, I am able to see different sides of the grand picture. You are one sided.

Freddypops

Joined: 11 Jun 2009

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject:

CentralCali wrote:

Is it even possible to be more of a hagweon apologist than you are in this post?

polonius wrote:

Recently a memorandum was released by the Ministry of Education, which is branch of the government, stated that all precautions should be taken with regards to the swine flu outbreak.

Right. All legitimate, as in legal, precautions. Refusing to let a healthy worker come to work and refusing to pay him are not legitimate actions.

Quote:

Considering that CDI shut down all 150 of their campuses for 2 weeks because some of their teachers were infected, thus losing billions, I can understand why hagwons are taking this approach.

Quote:

Why wouldn't the teacher want paid time? And why should a perfectly healthy person who isn't trying to avoid work wish to be docked sick days?

Quote:

Imagine that if you do return and are infected, thus shutting down the school causing millions in lost revenue. Because you caused the shut down, should they come after you for the lost revenue?

Quote:

Once CDI was shut down, we received hundreds of phone calls from parents asking us what we were doing to protect the school.

Here's yet another idea: tell them the truth. The government is screening people on their way into the country. And just being foreign doesn't mean someone has that virus.

Quote:

Remember that they are the customers and pay your salary. They want to make sure that their children are safe.

Use car child seats for babies, instead of holding the babies in their arms.
Ensure all passengers, including the children, in the car are using seat belts.
Stop driving on the sidewalks.
Would quit running red lights.
Would teach their children some real safety awareness.

No, safety has nothing to do with it.

Quote:

Take the vacation and the five extra days off. Sit at home, go out, enjoy yourself. So you aren't getting paid, but you aren't working either.

Quote:

When I announced this to my teachers, they understood, and some wanted to take their vacation just to get the 5 days off without pay.

Apparently, they didn't understand their rights to be paid per the terms of their contract.

Quote:

I started a poll on this, but it has fallen to the second page of the Job related discussions forum.

Yeah, and quite the scientific poll it is, too. Rolling Eyes

Ouch. End of thread, methinks.

polonius

Joined: 05 Jun 2004

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject:

WanderingDolphin wrote:

polonius wrote:

CentralCali wrote:

I told a teacher that already had his vacation booked that we would pay for the cancellation fees for both he and his girlfriend. I also told him that we wouldn't hold it against him if he decided to take the vacation.

I understand what you are saying about those who already had the vacation plans set before, and I even tried to get those teachers paid leave once they returned. I was in a 3 hour meeting discussing this issue. The concern was that the school wanted to be fair to all 25 of our teachers.

If you do take it to the Labor Board, (as I believe that your school won't back down) please let me know how it goes, so that if Labor decides that you are right, then I can change the schools policy.

*Edited to add*

By the way, the policy of requiring teachers to stay home for a week isn't solely for foreign teachers. It is being implemented for all staff and students who travel out of Korea.

WanderingDolphin

Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Location: Seoul

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject:

polonius wrote:

WanderingDolphin wrote:

polonius wrote:

CentralCali wrote:

The concern was that the school wanted to be fair to all 25 of our teachers.

If you do take it to the Labor Board, (as I believe that your school won't back down) please let me know how it goes, so that if Labor decides that you are right, then I can change the schools policy.

However, not all 25 teachers are currently scheduled for vacation, are they? Maybe 5 or 6 are, at least through the end of the summer.

There are also 2 people on vacation this week and they will be getting paid next week when they are on quarantine because, according to our foreign "coordinator" (said with extreme sarcasm) they didn't have a choice in the matter since they are already gone).

Is all that being "fair," according to your definition of the word?

Considering you and I work at the same school, you will probably find out sooner rather than later about what happens at the Labor Board.

geldedgoat

Joined: 05 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The government is not demanding the schools do this. If that was the case, then it would be the government's obligation to reimburse the teacher or hagwon director for the paid leave.

As the government is not making any such demand yet the hagwon director still sees fit to refuse the teacher to work, it falls on the director to bear the burden of paying the teacher as per the contract. If the teacher isn't sick, he shouldn't be forced to use his sick days. If the teacher doesn't want to use his vacation days to sit at home, he shouldn't be forced to do so.

This is the director's decision, and he should bear all the costs. It's not the teachers' faults that people here have misguided views of the outside world.

polonius

Joined: 05 Jun 2004

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject:

WanderingDolphin wrote:

Considering you and I work at the same school, you will probably find out sooner rather than later about what happens at the Labor Board.

Come talk to me today and voice your concerns. You know that I will listen and take them to the director. Like I stated before, I was in a three hour meeting regarding this, and I did voice that some people would perceive the issue as you are. If you give me more ammunition and ideas to try and sway the director, maybe it will work.

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