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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject: Political Logic |
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http://www.politico.com/blogs/politicolive/0709/McCain_says_no_to_potential_DOJ_torture_probe.html
| McCain wrote: |
| "No. I fought against waterboarding," the Arizona Republican said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "I have spoken out as forcibly as possible everywhere against what went on. It harms our image so much around the world when photographs come out. We all know bad things were done. We all know the operators were under orders to do so� I agree with the president of the United States it's time to move on, and not look back." |
How can people tolerate this sort of nonsense from their political representatives?
We all know bad things were done.
and
We all know the operators were under orders to do so
so the logical thing to do would be to investigate the people who ordered those bad things, right? Anyone who was truly speaking as forcibly as possible against these activities would certainly say so.
Why even open your mouth if all you're going to spew is hypocrisy? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Because he remembers Watergate?
If the Republicans want to stop the Obama administration dead in its tracks they would start screaming for an investigation of the Bush administration. (Of course they'd need to persuade Bush, Chaney, Rumsfeldt et al to fall on their swords.)
There's a section in 'The Prince' where Machiavelli says something about when you take over a state that you need to kill whoever you're going to kill at once, get it over with and then govern according to tradition. The worst thing is to drag out the executions--it just unsettles the people. Nic was right. The best way out of this situation is to wake up tomorrow with blaring headlines announcing a few dozen select bodies floating in the Potomac. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Political Logic |
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| Fox wrote: |
We all know the operators were under orders to do so
so the logical thing to do would be to investigate the people who ordered those bad things, right? Anyone who was truly speaking as forcibly as possible against these activities would certainly say so. |
| Ya-ta boy wrote: |
If the Republicans want to stop the Obama administration dead in its tracks they would start screaming for an investigation of the Bush administration. (Of course they'd need to persuade Bush, Chaney, Rumsfeldt et al to fall on their swords.)
There's a section in 'The Prince' where Machiavelli says something about when you take over a state that you need to kill whoever you're going to kill at once, get it over with and then govern according to tradition. The worst thing is to drag out the executions--it just unsettles the people. Nic was right. |
Obama should have begun the investigation immediately upon taking office. He would have demonstrated leadership, and it would have given him at least some credibility (even from me!  )
| Fox wrote: |
| the logical thing to do would be to investigate the people who ordered those bad things, right? |
Could it be that BO has been ordered NOT to do so?
Last edited by bacasper on Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Could it be that BO has been ordered NOT to do so? |
By the Bilderburgers, the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, the Internat'l Jewish cabal or the lizard-men from Mars? |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:27 am Post subject: Re: Political Logic |
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| Fox wrote: |
http://www.politico.com/blogs/politicolive/0709/McCain_says_no_to_potential_DOJ_torture_probe.html
| McCain wrote: |
| "No. I fought against waterboarding," the Arizona Republican said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "I have spoken out as forcibly as possible everywhere against what went on. It harms our image so much around the world when photographs come out. We all know bad things were done. We all know the operators were under orders to do so� I agree with the president of the United States it's time to move on, and not look back." |
How can people tolerate this sort of nonsense from their political representatives?
We all know bad things were done.
and
We all know the operators were under orders to do so
so the logical thing to do would be to investigate the people who ordered those bad things, right? Anyone who was truly speaking as forcibly as possible against these activities would certainly say so.
Why even open your mouth if all you're going to spew is hypocrisy? |
It would indeed be the logical (and the ethical) thing to do, which just goes to show the moral bankruptcy of realpolitics.
Having said that, I fail to see how "It harms our image so much around the world when photographs come out" ought to persuade anyone one way or the other. The United States already inflames the Muslim world because of its gender equality, support for Israel and tolerance of homosexuality (all of which forbidden in the Qur'aan) and already inflames the rest of the world due to its enormous capitalist economy and demolition of socialism. Can't see a bunch of photos of bearded theocratic lunatics making any difference. |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
If the Republicans want to stop the Obama administration dead in its tracks they would start screaming for an investigation of the Bush administration. (Of course they'd need to persuade Bush, Chaney, Rumsfeldt et al to fall on their swords.)
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That is an astute observation. I guess the gamble is that republicans are no more united than democrats (which is not really a party for the workingman either) with no republican wanting to be the first, and gridlock will set in anyway.
A disgraced president already set the 'pubs back 20 years once. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Could it be that BO has been ordered NOT to do so? |
By the Bilderburgers, the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, the Internat'l Jewish cabal or the lizard-men from Mars? |
Not by imaginary creature(s) which exist only in your mind (can more than one fit in that small space?), but by the people who vetted, financed, and put him where he is today. If he fails to act as the front man he has been designated to be, he knows he is through.
Impaired reality testing usually indicates a psychotic condition which can be successfully treated by a qualified professional. Try a neuroleptic. |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Obama was was put there by the American public, who chose him over the establishment choice, H. Clinton.
You are saying he is beholden to average democratic voters?
Does such idealism still survive?
I say he is be\holden to those voters and yet will sell them out. Politicians are scum. Expect nothing else. You won't get it. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| ChopChaeJoe wrote: |
| Obama was was put there by the American public, |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Each partisan side, and indeed multiple special interests within each of those sides, has sought, since at least as early as the Watergate era, to criminalize political and policy differences. No more, no less.
It remains a bad idea. I am sure this is exactly what J. McCain, and I still understand, B. Obama, are getting at when they talk about moving forward rather than obsessing on the past. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Each partisan side, and indeed multiple special interests within each of those sides, has sought, since at least as early as the Watergate era, to criminalize political and policy differences. No more, no less. |
Criminalizing political differences is a bad idea.
Holding elected politicians accountable for their actions is a very good idea.
This is an example of the latter. If the administration in question did nothing against the letter of the law, they've nothing to fear. I think we both know it's unlikely that a genuine investigation would find they did nothing against the letter of the law, though.
| Gopher wrote: |
| It remains a bad idea. I am sure this is exactly what J. McCain, and I still understand, B. Obama, are getting at when they talk about moving forward rather than obsessing on the past. |
So long as our elected officials manage to gull the general populace with this "don't look back, look forward" talk, they'll keep getting away with murder. Even describing this prejoratively as "obsessin on the past" is completely unfair; when any other potentially criminal actions are undertaken, no one says "Hey, it happened in the past, let it go," mere months later. There's nothing different about this. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Each partisan side, and indeed multiple special interests within each of those sides, has sought, since at least as early as the Watergate era, to criminalize political and policy differences. No more, no less. |
Criminalizing political differences is a bad idea.
Holding elected politicians accountable for their actions is a very good idea. |
Holding them accountable for crimes is an even better idea.
| Quote: |
| So long as our elected officials manage to gull the general populace with this "don't look back, look forward" talk, they'll keep getting away with murder. Even describing this prejoratively as "obsessin on the past" is completely unfair; when any other potentially criminal actions are undertaken, no one says "Hey, it happened in the past, let it go," mere months later. There's nothing different about this. |
I would fully support the "don't look back, look forward" talk - IF I could use it the next time I am before a judge. Unfortunately, the double standard is alive and well. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Holding elected politicians accountable for their actions is a very good idea. |
Then participate in federal, state, and local elections. Vote them out. Better yet, get involved in politics yourself and show them how you want it done.
The option you and others here have chosen thus far is to oppose them via sensationalist talk on the internet, an obscure site at that. Congratulations. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Holding elected politicians accountable for their actions is a very good idea. |
Then participate in federal, state, and local elections. Vote them out. |
That is insufficient to redress potentially criminal actions taken while in office. Saying, "If your elected officials behave in a criminal faction, all you should do is vote them out," is like saying, "If your secretary is stealing from the company, all you should do is fire her." Yes, you should fire her, but most people would also say she should be taken to court because of her crimes. Politicians should be no different in this regard.
If you care to present your explanation for why politicians should not be investigated for criminal actions undertaken while in office, I would like to hear it.
| Gopher wrote: |
| The option you and others here have chosen thus far is to oppose them via sensationalist talk on the internet, an obscure site at that. Congratulations. |
Indeed, how ridiculous of me to have casual conversations about topics that interest me on an internet forum. Truly worthy of mockery. And yes, it would be nice if I could grasp the raw political indifference of our culture with my bare hands and work it into a passion for justice, but through some personal defect, I am simply unable. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Politics is a dirty business, Fox. Do not get fooled by one or the other side's self-righteous claims to justice and purity while criminalizing the other side's decisions and policies.
Been going on in modern times since Marx and Lenin. |
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