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two roads
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: grammar question |
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I hope this is the right place to ask this.
If you answer the phone, and the person calling asks for you, are you supposed to say "This is him/her" or "This is he/she"? I thought it was him/her, but my textbook is saying he/she, and I want to make sure that I get it right. My reference books say you should just say, "This is Bob/Sue/whatever." If I'm right, can someone point me to a reliable book or website that will back me up when I tell my coteacher the textbook is wrong? I don't think she'll believe me otherwise.
Thanks! |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Just say, "Speaking".
Alternatively: "Yeah? Whaddaya want?"
Or the ever popular: "Talk to me!" |
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antoniothegreat
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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we usually say "this is him/her" because the pronoun is going at the end of the sentence, usually where an object is located, making the object prnoun sound correct. but this is actually a predicate nominative (i have heard other names for it, like complement). "This" and the object are the same, making them both the subject. So to be grammatically correct, we should say "This is she/he."
It is the same if someone asks "Who is Homer?' the answer should be "Homer is he." not "Homer is him." as "Homer" and "he" are the same. they are both the subject.
but again, most people say "this is her/him" when they answer the phone. teach whatever you feel is better... |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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This = subject
is = verb
him = object
Personal pronoun, third-person singular subject = he / she / it.
Personal pronoun, third-person singular object = him / her / it. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I prefer to say 'speaking' as well or maybe 'This is Privateer' or even 'That's me' because I hate the way 'This is he' sounds. Pretentious and unnatural. |
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ilovebdt
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Location: Nr Seoul
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: grammar question |
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| two roads wrote: |
I hope this is the right place to ask this.
If you answer the phone, and the person calling asks for you, are you supposed to say "This is him/her" or "This is he/she"? I thought it was him/her, but my textbook is saying he/she, and I want to make sure that I get it right. My reference books say you should just say, "This is Bob/Sue/whatever." If I'm right, can someone point me to a reliable book or website that will back me up when I tell my coteacher the textbook is wrong? I don't think she'll believe me otherwise.
Thanks! |
I find this topic of phone etiquette very interesting. I am a Brit and whenever I answer the phone and someone asks to speak to me I always respond "Speaking".
However, when I call my Kiwi friend, she always says "This is she". I had never heard that phrase used on the telephone till I called her.
Ilovebdt |
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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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I usually say "yes its me" - unless it sounds like somebody from the bank/credit card company/debt collection agency - in fact, i rarely answer 'witheld number' calls, which I think is a hangover from my times of trouble...  |
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Peeping Tom
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| antoniothegreat wrote: |
we usually say "this is him/her" because the pronoun is going at the end of the sentence, usually where an object is located, making the object prnoun sound correct. but this is actually a predicate nominative (i have heard other names for it, like complement). "This" and the object are the same, making them both the subject. So to be grammatically correct, we should say "This is she/he."
It is the same if someone asks "Who is Homer?' the answer should be "Homer is he." not "Homer is him." as "Homer" and "he" are the same. they are both the subject.
but again, most people say "this is her/him" when they answer the phone. teach whatever you feel is better... |
Well, why do the subject of a sentence and the predicate nominative have to have the same form? It's obvious from spoken English that people don't think they do.
Example:
A) Can you see Lisa?
B) I think so. Is that her? The girl over there with the glasses?
I doubt anyone would claim that it is more correct to say "Is that she?"
In French, no one questions the grammaticality of using "moi" (usually considered dative case) and not "je" (which would be nominative case) as the predicate nominative. E.g. C'est moi (NOT c'est je).
Why do I only here "Not I" when reading "The Little Red Hen"? Everyone says "Not me."
People, however, like to think it's the same because they are both "nominative," and a few English teachers think they're clever pointing this out. In reality, though, they are syntactically different.
Let's look at one more example...the word "become," which is also followed by a predicate nominative. Once, a girl was stalking me and wanted to copy everything I did. She soon went to a witch who gave her a potion allowing her to exchange bodies with another potion. After drinking it, she became me, and I became her. (not "she became I, and I became she) (I apologize for the lame story, but I needed a context where a pronoun could follow "become.") |
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esetters21
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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He/she
this is he/she who is speaking not him/her who is speaking |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| antoniothegreat wrote: |
we usually say "this is him/her" because the pronoun is going at the end of the sentence, usually where an object is located, making the object prnoun sound correct. but this is actually a predicate nominative (i have heard other names for it, like complement). "This" and the object are the same, making them both the subject. So to be grammatically correct, we should say "This is she/he."
It is the same if someone asks "Who is Homer?' the answer should be "Homer is he." not "Homer is him." as "Homer" and "he" are the same. they are both the subject.
but again, most people say "this is her/him" when they answer the phone. teach whatever you feel is better... |
I don't know why there is continued debate after this post. antoniothe great is correct. |
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antoniothegreat
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Peeping Tom wrote: |
| antoniothegreat wrote: |
we usually say "this is him/her" because the pronoun is going at the end of the sentence, usually where an object is located, making the object prnoun sound correct. but this is actually a predicate nominative (i have heard other names for it, like complement). "This" and the object are the same, making them both the subject. So to be grammatically correct, we should say "This is she/he."
It is the same if someone asks "Who is Homer?' the answer should be "Homer is he." not "Homer is him." as "Homer" and "he" are the same. they are both the subject.
but again, most people say "this is her/him" when they answer the phone. teach whatever you feel is better... |
Well, why do the subject of a sentence and the predicate nominative have to have the same form? It's obvious from spoken English that people don't think they do.
Example:
A) Can you see Lisa?
B) I think so. Is that her? The girl over there with the glasses?
I doubt anyone would claim that it is more correct to say "Is that she?"
In French, no one questions the grammaticality of using "moi" (usually considered dative case) and not "je" (which would be nominative case) as the predicate nominative. E.g. C'est moi (NOT c'est je).
Why do I only here "Not I" when reading "The Little Red Hen"? Everyone says "Not me."
People, however, like to think it's the same because they are both "nominative," and a few English teachers think they're clever pointing this out. In reality, though, they are syntactically different.
Let's look at one more example...the word "become," which is also followed by a predicate nominative. Once, a girl was stalking me and wanted to copy everything I did. She soon went to a witch who gave her a potion allowing her to exchange bodies with another potion. After drinking it, she became me, and I became her. (not "she became I, and I became she) (I apologize for the lame story, but I needed a context where a pronoun could follow "become.") |
just because people say a certain thing doesnt make it correct. how many people do you know use double negatives? we all know it is incorrect to say "i didnt tell hiim nothing." yet so many people do.
in your example, i think technically we should say "is that she?" as "she" and "that" are the same, they are both the subject of the sentence. but again, it sounds akward to hear an "i, he, she, we, or they" (subject pronouns) at the end of a sentence, so we use the object pronoun.
gypsyfish... thanks!
again, that is why we dont say "not I" in Little Red Hen.
I am not 100% about become, but I would think that doesn't use a predicate nominative. when i say "she became me" "she" and "me" are not the same thing. they are not both the subject. they are definitely different. you can clearly mark them grammatically, who became? she became (she is the subject). what/who did she become? she became me. me is the object. when using "to be" this become a bit akward. i think you can't use "become" to justify using an object pronoun for "to be" |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:40 am Post subject: Re: grammar question |
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Maybe you should try this.
Let's say that your real name is Joe Smith.
Your phone rings. You are the only one there and as such you answer the phone.
You say: Hello
The caller says: Is this Joe Smith?
You say: No, but he is here I will go get him.
Now you put down the phone. Wait about 15 seconds. Pick up the phone and say: Hello, this is Joe Smith.
| two roads wrote: |
I hope this is the right place to ask this.
If you answer the phone, and the person calling asks for you, are you supposed to say "This is him/her" or "This is he/she"? I thought it was him/her, but my textbook is saying he/she, and I want to make sure that I get it right. My reference books say you should just say, "This is Bob/Sue/whatever." If I'm right, can someone point me to a reliable book or website that will back me up when I tell my coteacher the textbook is wrong? I don't think she'll believe me otherwise.
Thanks! |
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Peeping Tom
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| antoniothegreat wrote: |
just because people say a certain thing doesnt make it correct. how many people do you know use double negatives? we all know it is incorrect to say "i didnt tell hiim nothing." yet so many people do. |
I tend to view things from a descriptive point of view. The prescriptive rules of English teachers have their place, but if their rules (and even they disagree) go into realms of sounding unnatural, I prefer sticking with the natural expressions. After all, when grammars were first made they usually were based on one dialect.
In French double negatives is the norm. Linguistically speaking, there is nothing incorrect about double negatives, but I'll agree that, for the time being, it sounds less learned to used double negative in English, and thus I wouldn't encourage any of my students to do it.
| antoniothegreat wrote: |
in your example, i think technically we should say "is that she?" as "she" and "that" are the same, they are both the subject of the sentence. but again, it sounds akward to hear an "i, he, she, we, or they" (subject pronouns) at the end of a sentence, so we use the object pronoun. |
The "technicality" of whether we should say "he/she/it" depends on the speaker's opinion of grammar. As mentioned above, I prefer the natural sounding solution. Also as I mentioned before, the subject and predicate nominate position are syntactically different, thus there is no need to view them as the same thing.
| antoniothegreat wrote: |
again, that is why we dont say "not I" in Little Red Hen.
I am not 100% about become, but I would think that doesn't use a predicate nominative. when i say "she became me" "she" and "me" are not the same thing. they are not both the subject. they are definitely different. you can clearly mark them grammatically, who became? she became (she is the subject). what/who did she become? she became me. me is the object. when using "to be" this become a bit akward. i think you can't use "become" to justify using an object pronoun for "to be" |
Do a quick search on the internet if you don't believe me. "Believe" (as well as "seem" and "remain") take a nominative predicate, just like "be." In Korean, "become" (되다) does not take an object particle either.
As far as I'm concerned, the problem lies in the fact that prescriptive English grammar (as well as other European languages) was originally based on Latin. In Latin, as far as I know, the predicate nominative has the same case endings as the subject. As a result, some English grammarians thought/think that we must follow the same rules, regardless of the fact that English is a different (in fact, Germanic and not Romance) language. As I mentioned, French (which IS a Romance language) uses the dative case pronouns in the nominative predicate, so it is by no means a linguistic rule set in stone. And since in English people tend to naturally use the dative case pronouns in nominative predicate positions, it seems more correct to me than a grammarian trying to impose Latin grammar rules on English. |
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Peeping Tom
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:48 am Post subject: Re: grammar question |
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| Kwangjuchicken wrote: |
Maybe you should try this.
Let's say that your real name is Joe Smith.
Your phone rings. You are the only one there and as such you answer the phone.
You say: Hello
The caller says: Is this Joe Smith?
You say: No, but he is here I will go get him.
Now you put down the phone. Wait about 15 seconds. Pick up the phone and say: Hello, this is Joe Smith.
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But I suppose that perhaps this is the best solution  |
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antoniothegreat
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Peeping Tom wrote: |
| antoniothegreat wrote: |
just because people say a certain thing doesnt make it correct. how many people do you know use double negatives? we all know it is incorrect to say "i didnt tell hiim nothing." yet so many people do. |
I tend to view things from a descriptive point of view. The prescriptive rules of English teachers have their place, but if their rules (and even they disagree) go into realms of sounding unnatural, I prefer sticking with the natural expressions. After all, when grammars were first made they usually were based on one dialect.
In French double negatives is the norm. Linguistically speaking, there is nothing incorrect about double negatives, but I'll agree that, for the time being, it sounds less learned to used double negative in English, and thus I wouldn't encourage any of my students to do it.
| antoniothegreat wrote: |
in your example, i think technically we should say "is that she?" as "she" and "that" are the same, they are both the subject of the sentence. but again, it sounds akward to hear an "i, he, she, we, or they" (subject pronouns) at the end of a sentence, so we use the object pronoun. |
The "technicality" of whether we should say "he/she/it" depends on the speaker's opinion of grammar. As mentioned above, I prefer the natural sounding solution. Also as I mentioned before, the subject and predicate nominate position are syntactically different, thus there is no need to view them as the same thing.
| antoniothegreat wrote: |
again, that is why we dont say "not I" in Little Red Hen.
I am not 100% about become, but I would think that doesn't use a predicate nominative. when i say "she became me" "she" and "me" are not the same thing. they are not both the subject. they are definitely different. you can clearly mark them grammatically, who became? she became (she is the subject). what/who did she become? she became me. me is the object. when using "to be" this become a bit akward. i think you can't use "become" to justify using an object pronoun for "to be" |
Do a quick search on the internet if you don't believe me. "Believe" (as well as "seem" and "remain") take a nominative predicate, just like "be." In Korean, "become" (되다) does not take an object particle either.
As far as I'm concerned, the problem lies in the fact that prescriptive English grammar (as well as other European languages) was originally based on Latin. In Latin, as far as I know, the predicate nominative has the same case endings as the subject. As a result, some English grammarians thought/think that we must follow the same rules, regardless of the fact that English is a different (in fact, Germanic and not Romance) language. As I mentioned, French (which IS a Romance language) uses the dative case pronouns in the nominative predicate, so it is by no means a linguistic rule set in stone. And since in English people tend to naturally use the dative case pronouns in nominative predicate positions, it seems more correct to me than a grammarian trying to impose Latin grammar rules on English. |
you make some good points, but i disagree with some of your assumptions. first, you say that their are opinions of grammar. i dont agree. there is a defined rule set for grammar. their are no opinions in grammar. there are different rule sets, like maybe american grammar versus british grammar, but there are no opinions. that is almost like saying your opinion of math. no, it is either right or wrong.
you bring up language history (not sure what the right term is there). Yes, English is a Germanic language, and German does the same as what i am saying with a predicate nominative. i dont know how familiar you are with German, but here is an example. If I say "It is the calculator" in German, I say "Es ist der Rechner." Es= it, ist=is, der=the Rechner= calculator. You seem familiar with French, so I am sure you know of the different genders for adjective articles (a, an, the). In German, Rechner is masculine, making the=der (feminine=die, neutral= das). in the accusative case (direct object) der changes to den.
in this example, der stays as der, as it is a predicate nominative. if i say "i have the calculator" i would then change der to den, as it is now a direct object (ich habe den Rechner).
i did a search, and realized you are correct about become. become is a linking verb, so it would then use a predicate nominative.
i kept searching...this is from Englishplus.com
Pronouns in the Predicate Nominative
In standard written English, the personal pronouns in the predicate nominative are the same as they would be in the subject. Most Americans do not speak this way, but it is grammatically correct.
The nominative case follows a linking verb to rename the subject.
Incorrect: The winner was her. (Objective case)
Correct: The winner was she. (Nominative case)
She is a predicate nominative. It uses the same case as the subject since it simply renames the subject.
Even though we may often say, "It's me" the grammatically correct way is "It's I."
address is http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000021.htm
i hope that ends this debate... |
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