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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: The Klein Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Polemics |
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The Swedish economist Johan Norberg takes down Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine".
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Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine purports to be an expos� of the ruthless nature of free-market capitalism and its chief recent exponent, Milton Friedman. Klein argues that capitalism goes hand in hand with dictatorship and brutality and that dictators and other unscrupulous political figures take advantage of "shocks"�catastrophes real or manufactured�to consolidate their power and implement unpopular market reforms. Klein cites Chile under General Augusto Pinochet, Britain under Margaret Thatcher, China during the Tiananmen Square crisis, and the ongoing war in Iraq as examples of this process.
Klein's analysis is hopelessly flawed at virtually every level. Friedman's own words reveal him to be an advocate of peace, democracy, and individual rights. He argued that gradual economic reforms were often preferable to swift ones and that the public should be fully informed about them, the better to prepare themselves in advance. Further, Friedman condemned the Pinochet regime and opposed the war in Iraq.
Johan Norberg is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and the author of, among other books, In Defense of Global Capitalism.
More by Johan Norberg
Klein's historical examples also fall apart under scrutiny. For example, Klein alleges that the Tiananmen Square crackdown was intended to crush opposition to pro-market reforms, when in fact it caused liberalization to stall for years. She also argues that Thatcher used the Falklands War as cover for her unpopular economic policies, when actually those economic policies and their results enjoyed strong public support.
Klein's broader empirical claims fare no better. Surveys of political and economic freedom reveal that the less politically free regimes tend to resist market liberalization, while those states with greater political freedom tend to pursue economic freedom as well. |
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9384
The whole paper is 20 pages long, but a fantastic read.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/html/bp102/bp102index.html |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't read it so I may be ignorant but I have a feeling that Klein was arguing, not that the people wouldn't support the reforms, but that these reforms came about at times when the public would be MORE INCLINED to support them. In essence, the politicos of that time knew when to introduce doctrines that, would not survive more scrutiny and or public discourse.
AGain though, I've read neither piece and am probably WAY off. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Klein more or less blames Milton Friedman and the "Chicago Boys" ( a reference to the University of Chicago College of Economics) as the the sole bane of the world's problems. Klein blames Friedman for every problem from Augusto Pinochet to the Iraq War; Friedman was very clearly against the Iraq War. She also makes the claim that free markets are the result of violence and intimidation. In fact, free markets and free trade yield great peace dividends.
Yet for all of Klein's absurdity, it is still a critically acclaimed work in Universities throughout the world. Moreover, many university professors are presenting her work as pure fact without presenting any alternative source, critical thinking indeed  . At any rate, thousands of university students, mostly in the colleges of Liberal Arts, are reading this book and getting the wrong idea. It's rather unfortunate really. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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I sent out an email on this subject to a few friends. I got two responses, and both were concerned with attacking Cato and defending Klein. Neither response mentioned Friedman in anyway.
I think there's a huge problem when Klein can command such loyalty but nobody knows enough about what Milton Friedman has done to be suspicious of attack jobs on him. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: The Klein Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Polemics |
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| She also argues that Thatcher used the Falklands War as cover for her unpopular economic policies, when actually those economic policies and their results enjoyed strong public support. |
Not sure if the Swede's done his homework there. Up until the advent of the Falklands War, Thatcher had been expected to lose the election, as she was rapidly losing popularity big time, because of her policies and the keenly felt effects of those policies. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I sent out an email on this subject to a few friends. I got two responses, and both were concerned with attacking Cato and defending Klein. Neither response mentioned Friedman in anyway.
I think there's a huge problem when Klein can command such loyalty but nobody knows enough about what Milton Friedman has done to be suspicious of attack jobs on him. |
All they need to know is that he was holding Pinochet's right nut when he was doin all that nasty stuff. Or so the story goes. In reality he met with the thug for 45 minutes or less and spoke repeatedly about his disgust at the human rights violations in the country. As Norberg writes, MF also consulted Vietnam and China yet nobody calls him a communist. To use a more relevant example, Obama has consulted with Wright and it has been properly asserted from all ends of the political spectrum that this does not mean that Obama is in agreement with all Wright wrote/said.
Klein can be useful, though the book in question was hardly her best work. Norberg was epic in his take down.
Klein has a fairly good piece in this issue of the Rolling Stone. It exceeds Disaster Capitalism by leaps and bounds in terms of coherence, rational conclusions yet still suffers from a myopic obsession with the United States that the smug-left of Canada is ill with. She has also done good work on the mismanagement (to say the least) of the Iraqi economy in The Nation. But trying to create an epic tome is not her strong area. No Logo was a lesson in pointless rambling and arrogant platitudes posing a high-minded criticism.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/20797485/chinas_allseeing_eye |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
Klein more or less blames Milton Friedman and the "Chicago Boys" ( a reference to the University of Chicago College of Economics) as the the sole bane of the world's problems. Klein blames Friedman for every problem from Augusto Pinochet to the Iraq War; Friedman was very clearly against the Iraq War. She also makes the claim that free markets are the result of violence and intimidation. In fact, free markets and free trade yield great peace dividends.
Yet for all of Klein's absurdity, it is still a critically acclaimed work in Universities throughout the world. Moreover, many university professors are presenting her work as pure fact without presenting any alternative source, critical thinking indeed . At any rate, thousands of university students, mostly in the colleges of Liberal Arts, are reading this book and getting the wrong idea. It's rather unfortunate really. |
Prove this. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
I sent out an email on this subject to a few friends. I got two responses, and both were concerned with attacking Cato and defending Klein. Neither response mentioned Friedman in anyway.
I think there's a huge problem when Klein can command such loyalty but nobody knows enough about what Milton Friedman has done to be suspicious of attack jobs on him. |
All they need to know is that he was holding Pinochet's right nut when he was doin all that nasty stuff. Or so the story goes. In reality he met with the thug for 45 minutes or less and spoke repeatedly about his disgust at the human rights violations in the country. As Norberg writes, MF also consulted Vietnam and China yet nobody calls him a communist. To use a more relevant example, Obama has consulted with Wright and it has been properly asserted from all ends of the political spectrum that this does not mean that Obama is in agreement with all Wright wrote/said.
Klein can be useful, though the book in question was hardly her best work. Norberg was epic in his take down.
Klein has a fairly good piece in this issue of the Rolling Stone. It exceeds Disaster Capitalism by leaps and bounds in terms of coherence, rational conclusions yet still suffers from a myopic obsession with the United States that the smug-left of Canada is ill with. She has also done good work on the mismanagement (to say the least) of the Iraqi economy in The Nation. But trying to create an epic tome is not her strong area. No Logo was a lesson in pointless rambling and arrogant platitudes posing a high-minded criticism.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/20797485/chinas_allseeing_eye |
I'm behind the Great Firewall. So you can be sure that I can't get to that link. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| That rolling stone article that Mises PMed me was pretty good. But she was definitely trying to hint that the rise of capitalism in China was only reinforcing state control. This is something I don't buy, and only an outsider like Klein would suggest that the greater number within 1.3 billion Chinese are experiencing any meaningful capitalism. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Good point.
The commies gave China totalitarianism. Capitalism is loosening it.
Yet Klein supports Chavez. Go figure. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| Pluto wrote: |
Klein more or less blames Milton Friedman and the "Chicago Boys" ( a reference to the University of Chicago College of Economics) as the the sole bane of the world's problems. Klein blames Friedman for every problem from Augusto Pinochet to the Iraq War; Friedman was very clearly against the Iraq War. She also makes the claim that free markets are the result of violence and intimidation. In fact, free markets and free trade yield great peace dividends.
Yet for all of Klein's absurdity, it is still a critically acclaimed work in Universities throughout the world. Moreover, many university professors are presenting her work as pure fact without presenting any alternative source, critical thinking indeed . At any rate, thousands of university students, mostly in the colleges of Liberal Arts, are reading this book and getting the wrong idea. It's rather unfortunate really. |
Prove this. |
Prove what? Did you read the review? |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| jkelly80 wrote: |
| Pluto wrote: |
Klein more or less blames Milton Friedman and the "Chicago Boys" ( a reference to the University of Chicago College of Economics) as the the sole bane of the world's problems. Klein blames Friedman for every problem from Augusto Pinochet to the Iraq War; Friedman was very clearly against the Iraq War. She also makes the claim that free markets are the result of violence and intimidation. In fact, free markets and free trade yield great peace dividends.
Yet for all of Klein's absurdity, it is still a critically acclaimed work in Universities throughout the world. Moreover, many university professors are presenting her work as pure fact without presenting any alternative source, critical thinking indeed . At any rate, thousands of university students, mostly in the colleges of Liberal Arts, are reading this book and getting the wrong idea. It's rather unfortunate really. |
Prove this. |
Prove what? Did you read the review? |
What departments/colleges/professors promote this book? It's always the same thing: "our college campuses support (fringe liberal cause/author)! It's an epidemic."
But no one can come up with facts to support this so called crisis. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| In fact, free markets and free trade yield great peace dividends. |
such as? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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As trade expands, more people get wealthy. More wealthy people lessens the chance of war.
http://www.humansecuritybrief.info/HSRP_Brief_2007.pdf
- Excluding Iraq, there has been a reduction in global fatalities from terrorism since 2001 of more than 40 percent.
- The number of conflicts in Sub-Saharan Africa more than halved 1999-2006 and the combat toll dropped by 98 percent.
- There has not been a reversal in the general decline in armed conflicts and combat deaths that we have seen since the end of the cold war.
www.johannorberg.net
I would pick at Pluto's use of "Free trade", but it would be largely a discussion about rhetoric. Trade, be it free or managed, has expanded and hundreds of millions of people lifted from poverty.
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The World Bank used to think that 634 million Chinese were in extreme poverty in 1981 and 128 million in 2004. In a new paper that The Economist brings attention to, numbers are revised for the new PPP-data and the new numbers are 839 million and 287 million respectively, and a year later, in 2005, it was 204 million. We thought that 506 million Chinese had escaped poverty, but it seems like 635 million did. |
www.johannorberg.net
The world is getting more safe and less violent. There are less wars and armed conflicts. They is directly correlated to two events. 1) the end of the cold war and 2) the spread of trade and markets.
As F.Bastiat said, "If goods do not cross borders, armies will." |
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