Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Epicurus]

I couldn't find the thread I saw this on, but it relates to many many threads here now so I'll just throw it out.

It has become fashionable on Dave's now to attack people for saying something like

"Koreans are rude".

This is considered 'racist', and also considered unacceptable because one is lumping everyone into the same category/group.

Personally, I agree that we should use the English language better to fine tune our points and arguments. I personally try to never generalize in such a broad manner and will use a qualfier like many/most, etc.

However:

I would submit to you that from a Western perspective when I hear someone make such a generalizing statement, I for the most part assume the person is too lazy to finetune their point and what they mean is

(Most, Many) Korean are rude.

What I am curious about is why the self appointed "racism police" doesn't blink an eyelash when they are told at school by their Korean co-workers or bosses things like

Korean food is very healthy and delicious.

What's amusing about hearing this from Koreans is that you know darn full wel that what they mean is:

(All) Korean food is very healthy and delicious.


(all) instead of (most/many) is the assumed prefix when Koreans make such statements because they truly believe it, or if someone actually falls outside the borg collective groupthink, then they're not really 100% pure blooded Korean.

so I guess my question is why what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander?

Nota Bene: the generalizations and examples used are just that.. examples. By using them I am in no way implying agreement with their content.

[djsmnc]

Because 2 wrongs don't make a right

[Kurtz]

Get out much mate?

Not sure how someone commenting on their nation's food can be called racist in any way.

Some people don't feel the need to write most/many etc which does in fact leave their argument open to being thwarted by the "generalization Nazi's" (see annoying online debating tactics thread, I somehow think you have the spare time to read that thread )

[PatrickGHBusan]

[Epicurus]

[Yesterday]

[Epicurus]

[tremendous]

[Kurtz]

Some PC Nazis like to slam Westerners, yet let other races do as they please.

Back home some people are willing to ban The Nativity scene being shown in department stores around Christmas time as it might offend Muslims, yet, in Muslim countries the locals expect everyone to follow suit no questions asked, especially women.

This is not to slam Muslims. I'm using that as an extreme example of PC.

Same rules apply here. PC Nazis will take whatever crap the Koreans throw at them, as it's their country, but one slight generalization made against Koreans by a Westerner and you'll get branded a racist or a Korea hater.

Life in the modern PC world. Just keep being yourself and telling it like it is, just expect less and less invitations to dinner parties as you'll be known as outspoken.

[crossmr]

The Koreans wouldn't be permitted to make those statements on this forum. This is a private website and Dave and his moderators can make whatever rules they want. If they wanted you to only access the forum while wearing a pink shirt and require you stream a live webcam while doing so, they could.

If that is a problem --> http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Korea+expat+forum&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&fp=a1047c2a76fad57b

[samcheokguy]

I thought it was pretty much a given that Koreans are rude if you consider it rude to spit all over the place and push people in lines.
-Now rude and polite are not actually right and wrong but cultural and therefore subjective judgments. So it isn't any more racist to say 'Koreans are rude (to my way of thinking)' than it would be racist to say 'Korean food is spicy.'
-But between the cultural apologists, korean boosters, and general stupid people on this board, turning to Dave's for real debate is like watching fox for 'fair and balanced news.'

[Steelrails]

As a frequent 'Korea Apologist' or PC Nazi or whatever, I have to say what's at issue isn't necessarily that what Korea-bashers say is true or generalized. It is the underlying attitude. 'Koreans are rude' may be true. But 'Koreans are nice.' is also true. 'Korea has terrible roads.' is true or you could say 'Korea has beuatiful flowers.'

What we are sometimes trying to get at is why all the negativity? There are plenty of things I don't like here, but if I focus on all the bad things I only get angrier and angrier and life becomes a self-fulfilling descent into misery.

And no, coming onto an internet forum and posting things in an agressive, condescending tone does NOTHING to help you personally or to improve the situation culturally. Private venting with a friend over beer's is one thing- it's private and it's verbal. Public postings are public and written. There should be a higher standard of clarity and specificity when making statements.

In my case, I hope I've tried to stay neutral when it comes to generalizations. Other posters will generalize 'The West' and I've seen how insulting that is- same as 'all koreans.'

This inability to differentiate between an individual and a group or organization is a frequent occurance on these forums. Often decisions made by individual politicians in Korea are ascribed to the government or all of the people, just like with W. Bush earlier this decade.

And just as Koreans try to take group credit for things, so to do people try to take credit for things in American/British history. e.g. "We invented the television" or "We marched for Civil Rights".

I think group generalizations whether positive or negative are silly. Take people one at a time. We didn't invent the lightbulb. We didn't win WWII. I am Steelrails the English teacher, not 'America'.


Also people seem to use the slightest defect of character as an excuse to totally write someone off. Just because local ajoshi spits or jostless dosen't make him a bad person. Just because some kid runs up to you and says hi on the street dosen't make them an annoying brat. Lighten up.

This has been mentioned time and time again but it does seem that the 'angry' people on this forum seem to find trouble.

One understands justified anger at things say involving the law or physical assaults, but we have posters here who are angry at children saying hello to them

There is also another consideration, maybe some of us aren't a bunch of charming socialites and therefore aren't as good at interacting with people and the reason we have these negative experiences are due to our poor people skills.

I do know that in my town the two teachers who had the worst time adjusting to Korea and handling things also had the poorest social skills. They had very poor listening comprehension ability and did not know how to select topics of discussion that people would find mutually entertaining either in close intimate settings or in larger group outings. They also did not balance speaking and listening well- either being too quiet or too dominating.

I would not be surprised if there was a correlation between listening & patience with one's satsifaction level here in Korea.

So I think these are some of the things from the 'Apologis' perspective.

However to defend the 'Korea bashers' we are all human and we should be able to exchange frustrations without getting hysterical. Koreans should be able to take some criticism. And people on this forum may be bigoted, simple-mided, overly-general, impatient, etc., but they are not horrible racists. If we can cut the Koreans slack for staring at people, we can cut FTs some slack for the sighs and shakes of head.

The solution to all of this is a filter of complaints from those who are disaffected (Internationalized Koreans, Foreigners, Kyopos, Adoptees, etc.) to those who are connected in Korean society and are sympathetic so they can rach teh populace as a whole. But we have to be careful as those who are 'outside' that we not condescened or blast. Change has to come from within, not by the bullhorn from outside.

Also to earn this equality we do have to hold ourselves to higher standards. Unequal higher standards. Indians marching for Independence and African-Americans striving for equality did show by holding their character to the highest, not by encouraging the lowest. So when it comes to things like drug tests if we say things like "It's just pot" we will lose. If we say "Yes I am drug free and I would like you to test me at your leisure, in fact I will go get tested every month and take the initiative" then we will be more highly regarded. That's how it works.

[DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP]

[Epicurus]

[Bucheonguy]

I don't believe that there is a Korean race to be racist against.

As far as generalizing goes, why mud sling? Just forget it and move on because life is too short.

Remember too, we really upset the power structure here and the culture too. We're all guilty of this crime. Not that it's really a crime but we are introducing and element of competition to a society that has zero social mobility. We're shaking the whole thing up for them so it's natural that we're going to be attacked.