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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:14 am Post subject: Debating the Proper Role of Government |
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What is the proper role of government in society?
Re-directed from the How's Obama doing? thread.
Some highlights:
| Fox wrote: |
| Pluto wrote: |
I don't know what's best for you and you've no idea what is best for me. |
There are facts about what is best for you; if there weren't, you couldn't possibly know what is best for you. If you can know those facts, so can I.
Further, it's very clearly true that at times I can know what is best for you better than you can know yourself. Doctors, psychologists, lawyers, dieticians, all people we hire because they really do in many cases know what is best for us better than we ourselves know.
In short, I really think this claim holds no weight at all. I'm sorry, but you're not some unknowable unknown; other people can know what is best for you, at times better than you do yourself. |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
You're being absurd and you know it. Your definition of freedom is to either accept the status quo or go into exile and live as a hermit. You don't even know what the word liberty means. |
No, that's not my definition of freedom. Rather, it's my suggestion to anyone who "Just wants to be left the Hell alone." You can have that, it's not all that hard to find in this world. It just comes with a cost.
Society isn't about being "Left the Hell alone." Society is about working together. That's a simple truth: as long as you're in a governed region of the world, you aren't going to be left alone. Taxes will be collected, and you'll be expected to follow laws. There are many benefits in return for this imposition, and you clearly think those benefits are worthwhile, which is why you're reticent to leave. |
Oh man... how shall I get this basic idea through [to you]? THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT SOCIETY. Society IS about being left alone, and the point of the constitution is to protect all of our personal freedoms. The sole purpose of government, as defined by our constitution, is to protect and defend these rights. Anything beyond that is tyranny by definition. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:23 am Post subject: Re: Debating the Proper Role of Government |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Pluto wrote: |
I don't know what's best for you and you've no idea what is best for me. |
There are facts about what is best for you; if there weren't, you couldn't possibly know what is best for you. If you can know those facts, so can I.
Further, it's very clearly true that at times I can know what is best for you better than you can know yourself. Doctors, psychologists, lawyers, dieticians, all people we hire because they really do in many cases know what is best for us better than we ourselves know.
In short, I really think this claim holds no weight at all. I'm sorry, but you're not some unknowable unknown; other people can know what is best for you, at times better than you do yourself. |
It doesn't matter if you think you know what's best for me or anyone else. You have no right to force it on us. Government should only stop people from infringing on others' constitutional rights. Beyond that, they should have no authority. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:03 am Post subject: |
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To Fox, Gopher and others on here who love their government and think everything will be okay (because your government will always take care of you  ), here's how it happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH6_i8zuffs&feature=related
^ Argentina, once the most prosperous country in South America (and one of the most prosperous even after the dictatorship ended), was betrayed by those voted into power (people believed all their lies, just as Americans believed the lies of Bush and Obama), completely gutted and raped by flagrant corruption, the middle class destroyed, and nearly all wealth handed over to the banks and the IMF. The result is a public left starving and oppressed by riot police, and hyperinflation of the currency. The exact same things that led up to it are now going on in the US right now, starting with the betrayal of the people by their president, who is working hand in hand with the global financiers.
Just because you haven't experienced it personally doesn't mean it doesn't happen all the time around the world, or that it won't happen in the US. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:25 am Post subject: |
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The state ought to protect persons and property, enforce contracts and similar. I also believe a light social safety net is appropriate, including universal medical coverage. And others.
Easier to say what it ought not do. That list would go on and on. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| If society is about being left alone, then why does everyone always seem to want to come together to form one? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| If society is about being left alone, then why does everyone always seem to want to come together to form one? |
Ok, let me just clarify what I actually meant here: I never meant "alone", literally (like a hermit), but simply being left alone, in the sense that the government shouldn't exert undue control over society as a whole, including individuals (whether passing laws or taxes). |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Liberty is about being left alone.
Free individuals can then voluntarily choose to associate with those they choose in ways that are mutually beneficial.
This is a free society.
Socialism is a system whereby certain greedy people and groups use the government to impose their will, through force, on individuals who would not participate freely.
This is fascism, socialism, communism and the final outcome of all runaway democracies.
In a free society, if you want to help the uninsured, for example, you would use your own money to fund a voluntary group that would subsidize the health care of the poor and provide health services to the uninsured when needed. You would use persuasion to convince others to join you in your worthy cause.
And so, you see the successful wealthy who have earned fortunes providing valuable goods and services to the public, then turn around and donate nearly the entire fortune to help the public in some charitable manner (Gates, Buffet etc.)
Socialists use the government to steal money from everyone to fund programs that they are unwilling to pay for themselves. They use the power they gain from the program to raise their own personal status, position, power and fortune. They put their family members and friends on the public payroll. They get richer and give nothing, exempt themselves from paying, actually gain from their efforts and care little if the program is necessary, useful or successful. Even if it hurts the needy, they continue the program.
Example, the Clintons, who couldn't buy a house for lack of a downpayment, with lawyer Hillary unable to land a good job, making under 15k as a lawyer, now have hundreds of millions of dollars. It all began with a $100,000 bribe disguised as commodity trading profits paid to Hillary, and a cushy job at the now defunct Rose lawfirm used to launder millions more in bribes while Bill was governor. |
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ubermenzch
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Location: bundang, south korea
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Liberty is about being left alone.
Free individuals can then voluntarily choose to associate with those they choose in ways that are mutually beneficial.
This is a free society.
Socialism is a system whereby certain greedy people and groups use the government to impose their will, through force, on individuals who would not participate freely.
This is fascism, socialism, communism and the final outcome of all runaway democracies.
In a free society, if you want to help the uninsured, for example, you would use your own money to fund a voluntary group that would subsidize the health care of the poor and provide health services to the uninsured when needed. You would use persuasion to convince others to join you in your worthy cause.
And so, you see the successful wealthy who have earned fortunes providing valuable goods and services to the public, then turn around and donate nearly the entire fortune to help the public in some charitable manner (Gates, Buffet etc.)
Socialists use the government to steal money from everyone to fund programs that they are unwilling to pay for themselves. They use the power they gain from the program to raise their own personal status, position, power and fortune. They put their family members and friends on the public payroll. They get richer and give nothing, exempt themselves from paying, actually gain from their efforts and care little if the program is necessary, useful or successful. Even if it hurts the needy, they continue the program.
Example, the Clintons, who couldn't buy a house for lack of a downpayment, with lawyer Hillary unable to land a good job, making under 15k as a lawyer, now have hundreds of millions of dollars. It all began with a $100,000 bribe disguised as commodity trading profits paid to Hillary, and a cushy job at the now defunct Rose lawfirm used to launder millions more in bribes while Bill was governor. |
Simplistic nonsense. I won't pretend to have the answers to most questions posed on this or other boards, but this kind of ModEdit makes my stomach turn. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| ubermenzch wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Liberty is about being left alone.
Free individuals can then voluntarily choose to associate with those they choose in ways that are mutually beneficial.
This is a free society.
Socialism is a system whereby certain greedy people and groups use the government to impose their will, through force, on individuals who would not participate freely.
This is fascism, socialism, communism and the final outcome of all runaway democracies.
In a free society, if you want to help the uninsured, for example, you would use your own money to fund a voluntary group that would subsidize the health care of the poor and provide health services to the uninsured when needed. You would use persuasion to convince others to join you in your worthy cause.
And so, you see the successful wealthy who have earned fortunes providing valuable goods and services to the public, then turn around and donate nearly the entire fortune to help the public in some charitable manner (Gates, Buffet etc.)
Socialists use the government to steal money from everyone to fund programs that they are unwilling to pay for themselves. They use the power they gain from the program to raise their own personal status, position, power and fortune. They put their family members and friends on the public payroll. They get richer and give nothing, exempt themselves from paying, actually gain from their efforts and care little if the program is necessary, useful or successful. Even if it hurts the needy, they continue the program.
Example, the Clintons, who couldn't buy a house for lack of a downpayment, with lawyer Hillary unable to land a good job, making under 15k as a lawyer, now have hundreds of millions of dollars. It all began with a $100,000 bribe disguised as commodity trading profits paid to Hillary, and a cushy job at the now defunct Rose lawfirm used to launder millions more in bribes while Bill was governor. |
Simplistic nonsense. I won't pretend to have the answers to most questions posed on this or other boards, but this kind of bullshit makes my stomach turn. |
Since you admit to not having the answers, you are clueless.
It's unfortunate that the truth causes you to be ill. The fact is, the truth is pretty awful, so you should feel ill.
The people you trust, and trusted, have robbed you, stolen your money, lowered your living standard permanently, bankrupted your nation and enslaved your children and grandchildren with a legacy of debt, enriched themselves while doing so, and lied to you so convincingly that you believed them.
Yeh, if I found out that I'd been fooled like you have, I'd feel sick too. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Liberty is about being left alone.
Free individuals can then voluntarily choose to associate with those they choose in ways that are mutually beneficial.
This is a free society.
Socialism is a system whereby certain greedy people and groups use the government to impose their will, through force, on individuals who would not participate freely.
This is fascism, socialism, communism and the final outcome of all runaway democracies.
In a free society, if you want to help the uninsured, for example, you would use your own money to fund a voluntary group that would subsidize the health care of the poor and provide health services to the uninsured when needed. You would use persuasion to convince others to join you in your worthy cause.
And so, you see the successful wealthy who have earned fortunes providing valuable goods and services to the public, then turn around and donate nearly the entire fortune to help the public in some charitable manner (Gates, Buffet etc.)
Socialists use the government to steal money from everyone to fund programs that they are unwilling to pay for themselves. They use the power they gain from the program to raise their own personal status, position, power and fortune. They put their family members and friends on the public payroll. They get richer and give nothing, exempt themselves from paying, actually gain from their efforts and care little if the program is necessary, useful or successful. Even if it hurts the needy, they continue the program.
Example, the Clintons, who couldn't buy a house for lack of a downpayment, with lawyer Hillary unable to land a good job, making under 15k as a lawyer, now have hundreds of millions of dollars. It all began with a $100,000 bribe disguised as commodity trading profits paid to Hillary, and a cushy job at the now defunct Rose lawfirm used to launder millions more in bribes while Bill was governor. |
Excellent post, ontheway. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| ubermenzch wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Liberty is about being left alone.
Free individuals can then voluntarily choose to associate with those they choose in ways that are mutually beneficial.
This is a free society.
Socialism is a system whereby certain greedy people and groups use the government to impose their will, through force, on individuals who would not participate freely.
This is fascism, socialism, communism and the final outcome of all runaway democracies.
In a free society, if you want to help the uninsured, for example, you would use your own money to fund a voluntary group that would subsidize the health care of the poor and provide health services to the uninsured when needed. You would use persuasion to convince others to join you in your worthy cause.
And so, you see the successful wealthy who have earned fortunes providing valuable goods and services to the public, then turn around and donate nearly the entire fortune to help the public in some charitable manner (Gates, Buffet etc.)
Socialists use the government to steal money from everyone to fund programs that they are unwilling to pay for themselves. They use the power they gain from the program to raise their own personal status, position, power and fortune. They put their family members and friends on the public payroll. They get richer and give nothing, exempt themselves from paying, actually gain from their efforts and care little if the program is necessary, useful or successful. Even if it hurts the needy, they continue the program.
Example, the Clintons, who couldn't buy a house for lack of a downpayment, with lawyer Hillary unable to land a good job, making under 15k as a lawyer, now have hundreds of millions of dollars. It all began with a $100,000 bribe disguised as commodity trading profits paid to Hillary, and a cushy job at the now defunct Rose lawfirm used to launder millions more in bribes while Bill was governor. |
Simplistic nonsense. I won't pretend to have the answers to most questions posed on this or other boards, but this kind of bullshit makes my stomach turn. |
You're the one who posts simplistic nonsense, and is later forced to admit (embarrassingly) he was wrong... You call his post 'bullshit', while admitting that you yourself are totally clueless in the same breath and unable to refute even a single one of his points? What kind of crap is that?? How disingenuous can you get?
Anyway, ontheway don't mind the fools on here (despite their hostility to you, they actually are making mental notes - they just like to make themselves feel important along the way). Your post is stating the obvious and is bang on. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| ubermenzsch wrote: |
| Simplistic nonsense. I won't pretend to have the answers to most questions posed on this or other boards, but this kind of bullshit makes my stomach turn. |
Since you admit to not having the answers, you are clueless. |
No, he's just honest. Rather than trying to falsely portray reality in terms of an extremist political and economic philosophy, and professing certainty of how the world would be under a system that's never truly been tried on a large scale, he simply admits lack of perfect knowledge. That's intellectually honest of him and worthy of respect, not condemnation.
| ontheway wrote: |
| The people you trust, and trusted, have robbed you, stolen your money, lowered your living standard permanently, bankrupted your nation and enslaved your children and grandchildren with a legacy of debt, enriched themselves while doing so, and lied to you so convincingly that you believed them. |
This is true. That doesn't make the rest of what you said true. It's your definitions, your non-data based assertions, and your claims like "All social problems are caused by the government," that are problematic.
In fact, the problems you described aren't ultimately caused by government at all, they're caused by people being indifferent to their own government's actions. When the average citizen stops paying attention to what their government is doing, stops demanding true transparency, stops holding their representatives accountable for their actions, yes, things start to go poorly. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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As far as the proper role of government, it's fairly substantial. Contract enforcement, prevention of harmful crime, national defense, education, health care, infrastructure maintenance, regulation of product safety, regulation of product information (e.g. preventing companies from lying about what is in their products, or the effects of their products), all things that are reasonably within the purview of the government.
I also have to admit I like scientific and medical research being funded by the government. |
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ubermenzch
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Location: bundang, south korea
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
You're the one who posts simplistic nonsense, and is later forced to admit (embarrassingly) he was wrong... You call his post 'bullshit', while admitting that you yourself are totally clueless in the same breath and unable to refute even a single one of his points? What kind of crap is that?? How disingenuous can you get?
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Rather bold of you to bring this up, considering the same thing happened to you a few weeks before. Anyway, I have no problems admitting mistakes when I am shown I am in error. That is the beauty of discussion boards such as these; there's little or no embarrassment as it's anonymous. As far as my own opinions on this subject, they correspond quite closely to what Fox has been saying. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Example, the Clintons, who couldn't buy a house for lack of a downpayment, with lawyer Hillary unable to land a good job, making under 15k as a lawyer, now have hundreds of millions of dollars. It all began with a $100,000 bribe disguised as commodity trading profits paid to Hillary, and a cushy job at the now defunct Rose lawfirm used to launder millions more in bribes while Bill was governor. |
This is just a campaign slur. Really distracts from your main points. |
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