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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:28 am Post subject: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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Time to start this thread now.
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"Today is a day to celebrate. We are very happy and satisfied that president Mas has called the referendum," said Carme Forcadell, the leader of a pro-independence group that has pushed for the referendum by organizing rallies over the past three years.
Unlike the Scotland vote, a pro-secession result in a referendum in Catalonia wouldn't result directly in secession but Mas says it would give him a political mandate to negotiate independence.
In the referendum, Mas wants to ask Catalans two questions; first, if they think Catalonia should be a state, and, if so, should it be independent. If the referendum is not held, Mas could call early regional elections that would essentially serve as a Yes or No vote on independence. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:33 am Post subject: |
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This is a whole thing now.
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| Unlike the Scotland vote, a pro-secession result in a referendum in Catalonia wouldn't result directly in secession but Mas says it would give him a political mandate to negotiate independence. |
So we don't even have to pretend to care. Wonderful. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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| mithridates wrote: |
Time to start this thread now.
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"Today is a day to celebrate. We are very happy and satisfied that president Mas has called the referendum," said Carme Forcadell, the leader of a pro-independence group that has pushed for the referendum by organizing rallies over the past three years.
Unlike the Scotland vote, a pro-secession result in a referendum in Catalonia wouldn't result directly in secession but Mas says it would give him a political mandate to negotiate independence.
In the referendum, Mas wants to ask Catalans two questions; first, if they think Catalonia should be a state, and, if so, should it be independent. If the referendum is not held, Mas could call early regional elections that would essentially serve as a Yes or No vote on independence. |
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I can't see it happening as it would hurt Spain a lot to lose Catalonia.
To nip campaigns like these in the bud the EU needs to stop undermining national sovereignity and take a clear stance against sepratist regions.
The SNP, Lega Nord and Catalan independence parties are all based on the same idea that their regions are wealthy and thanks to the EU no longer need the strength of the nation state for security.
A resolution banning entry into the EU for breakaway regions seeking to rejoin would be a fatal blow to sepratist aspirations. If they think for a second that their bank accounts are gonna suffer, the people will oppose independence in a heartbeat. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
To nip campaigns like these in the bud the EU needs to stop undermining national sovereignity and take a clear stance against sepratist regions. |
You're absolutely right, in the sense that a strong Federation must totally forbid dissolution of the union. Unfortunately, you're talking about the EU in particular, which is a very flawed and weak confederation. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
To nip campaigns like these in the bud the EU needs to stop undermining national sovereignity and take a clear stance against sepratist regions. |
You're absolutely right, in the sense that a strong Federation must totally forbid dissolution of the union. Unfortunately, you're talking about the EU in particular, which is a very flawed and weak confederation. |
The power and influence of the EU is hardly weak to those living under the weight of it's edicts. I am very Pro-EU, but it surprises even me sometimes to see how much sovereignty has been ceded to the Eurocrats.
Also, yes, I was talking about the EU making it clear that the EU cannot be used as a substitute for the nation state by breakaway regions.
Independence must mean just that and if the EU let's sepratist regions into the club, it will only encourage more sepratism.
As I said, I am very Pro-EU, but I do not doubt for a moment that there are many in Brussels who would salivate at the prospect of small EU dependent sepratist regions replacing strong independently minded nation states. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:28 am Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
The SNP, Lega Nord and Catalan independence parties are all based on the same idea that their regions are wealthy and thanks to the EU no longer need the strength of the nation state for security. |
^ There quite a bit wrong with this.
1) They are all based on an identitarian idea, not a materialist idea.
2) The nation-state is when a nation has a state. The EU is a multi-ethnic organization that diminishes the nation-state. The SNP and Catalan orgs express a desire to enter the EU, while the League of the North does not.
3) The separatist movements have nothing to do with security.
The European Last Man is a post-national, post-racial, post-culture, post-identity, post-roots consumer who dutifully consumes as a stand-in for his identity. This is what these organizations are in revolt against. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:46 am Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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| Quote: |
| 1) They are all based on an identitarian idea, not a materialist idea. |
They are based on the fact that they are wealthy or like to think they are and do not like the idea of their money being taken/stolen by far away capitals.
You cannot have missed the whining of SNP supporters about 'stolen oil' or Catalans about their taxes funding the poorer areas of Spain or the constant regionalist complaints about propping up the 'unproductive scroungers' in Naples.
Poor regions like Wales have proud cultural and linguistic traditions. However, they are not calling for independence because they know that economically they are dependent on the UK.
| Quote: |
| 2) The nation-state is when a nation has a state. The EU is a multi-ethnic organization that diminishes the nation-state. |
I didn't say the EU was a nation state. I said that some within the EU were trying to undermine the nation state, so we agree no?
Or do you take issue with the term 'nation state'?
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| The SNP and Catalan orgs express a desire to enter the EU, while the League of the North does not. |
The Lega Nord is a broadchurch, but it is not against the EU per se just the current incarnation. In fact they have said quite emphatically that they want the EU to be composed of regions.
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| 3) The separatist movements have nothing to do with security. |
Security doesn't just means guns and tanks.
The security that the state provides to it's composite regions range from economic security and water security to security from invasion.
Whilst the latter is not of prime concern, the issue of nuclear weapons, NATO membership and the UK's global role were very important to Scottish sepratists.
| Quote: |
| The European Last Man is a post-national, post-racial, post-culture, post-identity, post-roots consumer who dutifully consumes as a stand-in for his identity. This is what these organizations are in revolt against. |
Quite the opposite.
The EU has spent many billions and continues to spend many billions on preserving and promoting regional cultures. Dead regional languages have been brought back, traditional dress has been revived and unique regional food/drink culture has been protected.
By appealing to regional governments and fostering relationships with the regions the EU can bypass government at the national level. It is in this way that the EU project fuels sepratism by removing the fear of creating a new and much smaller independent country.
There is no single European culture to bind the disparate peoples together, so there are those within the EU leadership that want to encourage regional identity. They want to undermine national identity because it is more threatening to the EU. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
To nip campaigns like these in the bud the EU needs to stop undermining national sovereignity and take a clear stance against sepratist regions. |
You're absolutely right, in the sense that a strong Federation must totally forbid dissolution of the union. Unfortunately, you're talking about the EU in particular, which is a very flawed and weak confederation. |
The power and influence of the EU is hardly weak to those living under the weight of it's edicts. I am very Pro-EU, but it surprises even me sometimes to see how much sovereignty has been ceded to the Eurocrats. |
Maybe some examples might help. Its true that you're probably more familiar with the EU than I am. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
To nip campaigns like these in the bud the EU needs to stop undermining national sovereignity and take a clear stance against sepratist regions. |
You're absolutely right, in the sense that a strong Federation must totally forbid dissolution of the union. Unfortunately, you're talking about the EU in particular, which is a very flawed and weak confederation. |
The power and influence of the EU is hardly weak to those living under the weight of it's edicts. I am very Pro-EU, but it surprises even me sometimes to see how much sovereignty has been ceded to the Eurocrats. |
Maybe some examples might help. Its true that you're probably more familiar with the EU than I am. |
There are too many examples to go into in detail, but basically all businesses are subject to a number of EU set regulations.
There is also the much hated Common Fisheries Policy which sets Europe wide restrictions on fishing. This means that what number and what kind of fish caught are set not by national govts, but by the EU.
It is a big reason why countries like Iceland want to stay out of the EU.
Also whilst it is not related to edicts, there is the new controversy about the UK paying unemployment benefits for Czech, Slovak and Polish people who had worked in the UK, but are now unemployed back in their home country. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
To nip campaigns like these in the bud the EU needs to stop undermining national sovereignity and take a clear stance against sepratist regions. |
You're absolutely right, in the sense that a strong Federation must totally forbid dissolution of the union. Unfortunately, you're talking about the EU in particular, which is a very flawed and weak confederation. |
The power and influence of the EU is hardly weak to those living under the weight of it's edicts. I am very Pro-EU, but it surprises even me sometimes to see how much sovereignty has been ceded to the Eurocrats. |
Maybe some examples might help. Its true that you're probably more familiar with the EU than I am. |
There are too many examples to go into in detail, but basically all businesses are subject to a number of EU set regulations.
There is also the much hated Common Fisheries Policy which sets Europe wide restrictions on fishing. This means that what number and what kind of fish caught are set not by national govts, but by the EU.
It is a big reason why countries like Iceland want to stay out of the EU.
Also whilst it is not related to edicts, there is the new controversy about the UK paying unemployment benefits for Czech, Slovak and Polish people who had worked in the UK, but are now unemployed back in their home country. |
The EU regulates fishing rights? Maybe this is a matter of perspective, because I don't find that to be strong or oppressive in any real way.
The United States Federal government waged a war against slavery and secession which killed 2 million people. The Federal government writes criminal laws and incarcerates people for decades for drug trafficking. It jails people for downloading pirated videos. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
To nip campaigns like these in the bud the EU needs to stop undermining national sovereignity and take a clear stance against sepratist regions. |
You're absolutely right, in the sense that a strong Federation must totally forbid dissolution of the union. Unfortunately, you're talking about the EU in particular, which is a very flawed and weak confederation. |
The power and influence of the EU is hardly weak to those living under the weight of it's edicts. I am very Pro-EU, but it surprises even me sometimes to see how much sovereignty has been ceded to the Eurocrats. |
Maybe some examples might help. Its true that you're probably more familiar with the EU than I am. |
There are too many examples to go into in detail, but basically all businesses are subject to a number of EU set regulations.
There is also the much hated Common Fisheries Policy which sets Europe wide restrictions on fishing. This means that what number and what kind of fish caught are set not by national govts, but by the EU.
It is a big reason why countries like Iceland want to stay out of the EU.
Also whilst it is not related to edicts, there is the new controversy about the UK paying unemployment benefits for Czech, Slovak and Polish people who had worked in the UK, but are now unemployed back in their home country. |
The EU regulates fishing rights? Maybe this is a matter of perspective, because I don't find that to be strong or oppressive in any real way.
The United States Federal government waged a war against slavery and secession which killed 2 million people. The Federal government writes criminal laws and incarcerates people for decades for drug trafficking. It jails people for downloading pirated videos. |
The EU is not oppressive nor does it have powers akin to that of the US Federal government.
Also the member states are not just regions of a larger country as in the US, they are sovereign independent countries, so for them to let their fising, energy and immigration policies be in large part set by the EU is not a small thing.
Plus I did mention that all businesses have to abide by EU regulations and EU law has a huge impact on the laws of member states. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| 1) They are all based on an identitarian idea, not a materialist idea. |
They are based on the fact that they are wealthy or like to think they are and do not like the idea of their money being taken/stolen by far away capitals.
You cannot have missed the whining of SNP supporters about 'stolen oil' or Catalans about their taxes funding the poorer areas of Spain or the constant regionalist complaints about propping up the 'unproductive scroungers' in Naples.
Poor regions like Wales have proud cultural and linguistic traditions. However, they are not calling for independence because they know that economically they are dependent on the UK. |
More shite from this clown about independence. 45% of the country voted for independence, not just SNP supporters.
The whole independence debate centered on who would best look after Scotland's interests. To suggest it was solely based on their country being wealthy is horseshite.
And indie voters believed that by refraining from bombing places like Syria their nation would be more secure.
Fellow posters - whenever you see a post from aq8knyus about anything Scottish, please realize the boy doesn't know what he's talking about. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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Uggh chavs are bad enough in real life, to see them here is thoroughly depressing.
Are you actually capable of making a point without recourse to such vile language?
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| More shite from this clown about independence. 45% of the country voted for independence, not just SNP supporters. |
You can't seperate the SNP from Scottish independence. They were the driving force, they drafted the white paper and nearly all the arguments for independence were SNP arguments.
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| The whole independence debate centered on who would best look after Scotland's interests. To suggest it was solely based on their country being wealthy is horseshite. |
You must have missed the decades of moaning about 'stolen oil' and the constant SNP claims that Scotland was one of the richest countries in the world.
Without the wealth there would be no support for indy, just as there is no support in Wales.
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| And indie voters believed that by refraining from bombing places like Syria their nation would be more secure. |
The UK didn't bomb Syria.
The Tories lost the vote thanks to English MPs.
| Quote: |
| Fellow posters - whenever you see a post from aq8knyus about anything Scottish, please realize the boy doesn't know what he's talking about. |
I don't like your chavvy style or vile language, but I always appreciate your easily refutable soft ball posts.
They always make me look so intelligent. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:41 am Post subject: Re: The Catalonia independence referendum |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
Uggh chavs are bad enough in real life, to see them here is thoroughly depressing.
Are you actually capable of making a point without recourse to such vile language?
| Quote: |
| More shite from this clown about independence. 45% of the country voted for independence, not just SNP supporters. |
You can't seperate the SNP from Scottish independence. They were the driving force, they drafted the white paper and nearly all the arguments for independence were SNP arguments.
| Quote: |
| The whole independence debate centered on who would best look after Scotland's interests. To suggest it was solely based on their country being wealthy is horseshite. |
You must have missed the decades of moaning about 'stolen oil' and the constant SNP claims that Scotland was one of the richest countries in the world.
Without the wealth there would be no support for indy, just as there is no support in Wales.
| Quote: |
| And indie voters believed that by refraining from bombing places like Syria their nation would be more secure. |
The UK didn't bomb Syria.
The Tories lost the vote thanks to English MPs.
| Quote: |
| Fellow posters - whenever you see a post from aq8knyus about anything Scottish, please realize the boy doesn't know what he's talking about. |
I don't like your chavvy style or vile language, but I always appreciate your easily refutable soft ball posts.
They always make me look so intelligent. |
And here we see some classic examples of his stupidity.
Wrong about the SNP.
The main arguments for independence were based in socialist values.
Moaning about "stolen oil".
Was it stolen - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfbfldSrJ-0
And it's a fact that with oil Scotland is richer than the rest of the UK - http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26614122
It may upset you, but that doesn't change facts.
UK bombing
UK to bomb ISIS in Iraq - http://rt.com/uk/191188-britain-isis-bombing-iraq/
And with ISIS operating in Syria, how long till the UK joins in the bombing.
Come one, come all! See aq8knyus make a fool of himself, post nonsense, and attempt insults such as "chav". |
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