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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:07 am Post subject: 9/11 planner is recast as key asset for CIA |
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| Quote: |
/11 planner becomes key asset for CIA
Mohammed gave �terrorist tutorials� after waterboarding, sleep deprivation
By Peter Finn, Joby Warrick and Julie Tate
The Washington Post
updated 4:42 a.m. ET Aug. 29, 2009
WASHINGTON - After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials."
In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture.
Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."
These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques.
"KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete," according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA's then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department.
Cooperation
The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.
Over a few weeks, he was subjected to an escalating series of coercive methods, culminating in 7 1/2 days of sleep deprivation, while diapered and shackled, and 183 instances of waterboarding. After the month-long torment, he was never waterboarded again.
"What do you think changed KSM's mind?" one former senior intelligence official said this week after being asked about the effect of waterboarding. "Of course it began with that." |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32605529/ns/us_news-washington_post/ |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| I don't care if he turned into an ultra-lethal stealth assassin and single-handedly annihalated al-Qaeda for us after being tortured, I still don't want our goverment doing it. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:35 am Post subject: |
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The choice given isn't what the situation really is. so it is a moot question.
Anyway this is going to help Dick Cheney.
Did you ever see Mississipi Burning? |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| "KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete," according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA's then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department. |
Isn't this cherry-picking? It gives the impression that the report says he produced a lot of useful intelligence afterward, without actually finding a quote that says so. The article doesn't rely on the report elsewhere, and all quotes to that effect are without attribution. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Anyway this is going to help Dick Cheney. |
No it's not. Dick Cheney is not a persuasive entity. Those who are for him are for him for purely partisan reasons; no one who previously thought this sort of behavior was unacceptable is going to suddenly come around to Cheney's way of thinking.
People who oppose torture don't oppose it because they think it's not effective, they oppose it for ethical reasons (or, in the case of some, unfortunately for political reasons).
Last edited by Fox on Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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This is only remotely related, but seemed better to post it here than make it's own thread for it.
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Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) warned on Sunday that "potential 9/11" scenarios are "happening all the time" and that Eric Holder's investigation of rough CIA interrogations could have a chilling effect.
Appearing on CNN's "State of the Union," Hatch said the investigation was in part political and that "they're making it so the people at the CIA are afraid to do anything."
"So we come onto a potential 9/11, and they're happening all the time � that all I can say about it," he said, adding that America needs the best people working on those without the chilling effect of later investigations.
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In short, he's essentially saying, "We can't ever try to hold the CIA accountable for anything they deem is the best way to fight terrorism, even if it breaks the law." For all that Conservatives like to scream about how Obama is trying to take away our freedoms, here's yet another Republican arguing against CIA accountability, which is a great slippery slope towards freedom-erosion. Put them beyond accountability and their actions will only get worse with time. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Then the CIA got lucky.
Because torture is not interrogation. Its just torture. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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My apology to Joo.
Over the years I have strongly disagreed with things you've posted and have posted things myself which you have taken issue.
I do not apologize for disagreeing with you, and I still hold to some things that you might call radical, suspect or downright crazy. (such as 911 conspiracy)
I do however apologize for allowing myself to be dragged into the fray of childish name-calling and the like.
I hope you will accept my humble apology and also hope that any future discussions we may have will be in a spirit of respect. Though we may disagree on various issues, I would hope that we could discuss things like civil adults.
Peace |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Anyway this is going to help Dick Cheney. |
No it's not. Dick Cheney is not a persuasive entity. Those who are for him are for him for purely partisan reasons; no one who previously thought this sort of behavior was unacceptable is going to suddenly come around to Cheney's way of thinking.
People who oppose torture don't oppose it because they think it's not effective, they oppose it for ethical reasons (or, in the case of some, unfortunately for political reasons). |
At least when it comes to legal stuff it will.
There is one more question here: if and whenever the occassion that AQ gets its way is that justice? I don't think it is.
On 9-11 AQ got its way. If someone could show a way of stopping AQ once and for all , I would be for it . No exceptions. When they get what they want it is not justice - when they don't it is.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
My apology to Joo.
Over the years I have strongly disagreed with things you've posted and have posted things myself which you have taken issue.
I do not apologize for disagreeing with you, and I still hold to some things that you might call radical, suspect or downright crazy. (such as 911 conspiracy)
I do however apologize for allowing myself to be dragged into the fray of childish name-calling and the like.
I hope you will accept my humble apology and also hope that any future discussions we may have will be in a spirit of respect. Though we may disagree on various issues, I would hope that we could discuss things like civil adults.
Peace |
Thank you. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-09-01/tortures-moral-toll/full/
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In praising the treatment of KSM, and arguing that it ought to be standard detainee policy, McCarthy and like-minded pundits never consider the significant strategic drawbacks to the tactic of torture�among them eliciting false intelligence that squanders man hours; the fact that a torture policy causes some upstanding intelligence professionals to resign, and others to remove themselves from interrogations, hurting our capacity to gather good intelligence; that torture pushes more Muslims into the radical camp, increases anti-American sentiments, aids terrorist recruiting efforts, and undermines support for the war on terror even among significant numbers of Americans; that it causes allied countries to cooperate less with our counterterrorism efforts; that it reduces the morale of soldiers and intelligence professionals; and that �enhanced interrogation techniques� have demonstrably bled into military prisons, undermining our mission in a critical theater and leading to the rightful imprisonment of American soldiers, who were denounced even by the Bush administration.
What kind of national-security analyst ignores all that to argue that because KSM was waterboarded, sleep deprived, and later gave some useful information, the strategic case for �enhanced interrogation� is definitely vindicated?
Though I cannot say definitively whether torture is or isn�t an effective utilitarian tool, I am mightily influenced Jim Manzi�s observation that �we keep beating� torturing nations. �The regimes in the modern world that have used systematic torture and directly threatened the survival of the United States�Nazi Germany, WWII-era Japan, and the Soviet Union�have been annihilated, while we are the world�s leading nation,� he writes. �The list of other torturing nations� has won no competition worth winning. The classically liberal nations of Western Europe, North America, and the Pacific that led the move away from systematic government-sponsored torture are the world�s winners.� |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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that it causes allied countries to cooperate less with our counterterrorism efforts; that it reduces the morale of soldiers and intelligence professionals; and that �enhanced interrogation techniques� have demonstrably bled into military prisons, undermining our mission in a critical theater and leading to the rightful imprisonment of American soldiers, who were denounced even by the Bush administration.
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I have to agree with that statement. I would be very hesitant about handing someone over to them if i knew they were going to be tortured or any other country for that matter.
In the 1950's in the Soviet Union, 15 pastors were arrested and tortured until they confessed to being US agents, (none of them were). They were sentenced to 10 - 15 years in a gulag. Only one did not break after the torture that they were put through and it was what is called normal practice today, staring at a white wall, with beatings if they moved, while not sleeping for weeks on end.
The one person who did not confess after the torture was sentenced to 5 years in prison for refusing to admit to being an american agent. In the 1950's, those actions were considered torture and abhored by US citizens.
Why should it now be considered acceptable? |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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The US doesn't arrest pastors and village priests like what happened under Communism and Stalin - it's a heck of a difference and not useful for a comparison.
Nowadays with terrorism the message is pretty clear. If you don't want to be tortured then don't kill innocent people.
If an American had walked into that terrorist's tent do you think the terrorist would have let the American walk out without any harm? |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheonmunka wrote: |
| The US doesn't arrest pastors and village priests like what happened under Communism and Stalin - it's a heck of a difference and not useful for a comparison |
But the use of torture is comparable. In neither case did it produce useful intelligence. And since we have defeated every past opponent who used it, you have to wonder if it is really such a great tool. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| In neither case did it produce useful intelligence |
That's not what I read. I read the terrorist was stubbornly unresponsive then when tortured suddenly blathered out the truth.
You know, I reckon if you were leaning out of the 78th floor with the only choice to jump and knowing your own death, you'd be thinking, "Man, if only they tortured that Arab guy then I (and 3500 others) wouldn't have to this."
The guy killed 4000 of your brothers and sisters, in the most scary and violent way. Why do stand up for him and others like him? I really can't understand that.
I think the intelligence community is necessary at this time. Pre-knowledge has already stopped several planned terrorist attacks. And other countries don't need as much intel as the US has always been big target and actually collects intel for other countries who are allied with it. Politics aside, now innocent people are in danger. So, you've got to do something.
Further, if someone kills your wife and children, would you not bother him? Would you let him enjoy three meals a day, sunshine and exercise?
I don't believe civil liberties exist for others who kill innocent people. I wouldn't give a hoot if he were waterboarded until dead.
As for being told off for not taking notes I think I would stand up and throw my shoe at him before strangling him. |
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