|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Sushi
Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Location: North Korea
|
 Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: Sex under pretense of marriage is OK |
 |
|
From Korea Herald
Gov't says punishment for sex under pretense of marriage unconstitutional
Korea's government insisted Tuesday that a longstanding law penalizing men who have sex with women under the false promise of marriage is outdated and runs counter to the constitutional clause on gender equality, Yonhap reported.
In a written opinion filed with the Constitutional Court, the Ministry of Gender Equality said the criminal law code's 304th clause stipulating punishment for men accused of coercing women to have sex with them after promising marriage is discriminatory against men and infringes on women's sexual rights.
Violators of the clause can currently be punished with prison sentences of less than two years or a fine of less than 5 million won ($4,000).
The move is the first time that a government ministry has publicly raised questions over the constitutionality of the current criminal law.
The ministry's written opinion was submitted ahead of a hearing at the Constitutional Court on Thursday involving a Korean man, identified only as Lim, who was indicted for having sex with one of his female workers on four occasions under the fraudulent promise of marriage.
Lim claims the "outdated" criminal law violates his female partner's sexual rights as well as his own right to pursue happiness. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Carla
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Sex under pretense of marriage is OK |
|
|
| Sushi wrote: |
From Korea Herald
Gov't says punishment for sex under pretense of marriage unconstitutional
Korea's government insisted Tuesday that a longstanding law penalizing men who have sex with women under the false promise of marriage is outdated and runs counter to the constitutional clause on gender equality, Yonhap reported.
In a written opinion filed with the Constitutional Court, the Ministry of Gender Equality said the criminal law code's 304th clause stipulating punishment for men accused of coercing women to have sex with them after promising marriage is discriminatory against men and infringes on women's sexual rights.
Violators of the clause can currently be punished with prison sentences of less than two years or a fine of less than 5 million won ($4,000).
The move is the first time that a government ministry has publicly raised questions over the constitutionality of the current criminal law.
The ministry's written opinion was submitted ahead of a hearing at the Constitutional Court on Thursday involving a Korean man, identified only as Lim, who was indicted for having sex with one of his female workers on four occasions under the fraudulent promise of marriage.
Lim claims the "outdated" criminal law violates his female partner's sexual rights as well as his own right to pursue happiness. |
Ummmm..... I don't agree with this law because people who honestly plan on getting married break up..... but..... how does this law "violate" women's sexual rights? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Meanwhile, Korean women are still getting locked up for cheating on their husbands, while the guys can go out and bang hookers on almost every street in Korea. Good job! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ekul
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Location: [Mod Edit]
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The law was archaic and doesn't work with todays values. It has nothing to do with whether men can cheat and women can't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Carla
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cj1976 wrote: |
| Meanwhile, Korean women are still getting locked up for cheating on their husbands, while the guys can go out and bang hookers on almost every street in Korea. Good job! |
Ya, that's a machismo thing. Guys who get cheated on are more mad, and girls who get cheated on are more embarrased. So, women are more often just to leave and avoid the topic. There was a Canadian(I think) woman a while back who filed charges against her Korean husband for cheating. Wonder how that came out?
A couple of years ago, I knew a Korean guy who talked a lot when he drank. He had been seperated from his wife for a while because she found out he was cheating on her. He kept going on and on about why wouldn't she take him back. Finally, I asked him, "If she had cheated on you, would you take her back?" He stopped for a minute, and said no, he wouldn't. Not saying that is a Korean thing, a lot of American guys are the exact same way.
"And forgive us our trespasses, as we do not forgive them that trespass against us" seems to be an idea in lots of factors of life everywhere.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rgv
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Sex under pretense of marriage is OK |
|
|
| Carla wrote: |
| Ummmm..... I don't agree with this law because people who honestly plan on getting married break up..... but..... how does this law "violate" women's sexual rights? |
The law punished men for lying to women about marriage in order to sleep with them. The reason it was removed is that by punishing the man for sleeping w/ someone under the pretense of marriage treats men's sexual interest unfairly (that women can't the sexual aggressor) and then implies that women should only be sexually active within wedlock, thereby going against notions of women being free to choose their partners/time of relations in accordance with their own discretion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ever look at it from the point of view of a woman who just got dumped by her boyfriend and is looking for "revenge"?
This is a country where a woman will sue a man for breaking up with her. The reason? Because he stole "her time and youth". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mc_jc
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| This reminds me of a system in Iran where a man temporarily "marries" a woman for the purpose of having sex with her. Money is exchanged three ways; man-to-woman and man-to-cleric. And this is perfectly legal. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Carla
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Sex under pretense of marriage is OK |
|
|
| rgv wrote: |
| Carla wrote: |
| Ummmm..... I don't agree with this law because people who honestly plan on getting married break up..... but..... how does this law "violate" women's sexual rights? |
The law punished men for lying to women about marriage in order to sleep with them. The reason it was removed is that by punishing the man for sleeping w/ someone under the pretense of marriage treats men's sexual interest unfairly (that women can't the sexual aggressor) and then implies that women should only be sexually active within wedlock, thereby going against notions of women being free to choose their partners/time of relations in accordance with their own discretion. |
I guess we just don't see it the same way. Following that logic, by removing the law, there is absolutely nothing different from a woman who sleeps with a new man every night for any old reason reason and a woman who sleeps with her fiance. And in a society with strict moral laws (even if they are not usually enforced) it leads to even more pressure to remain a virgin until marriage. That is going to have the opposite effect on women's sexual rights.
Oh, to clarify, when I said we don't see the same way, I'm not speaking specifically about you. I do not know if that is your personal opinion or you are just stating the opinion of others to answer my question. Either way, thank you for your clear answer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Carla
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mc_jc wrote: |
| This reminds me of a system in Iran where a man temporarily "marries" a woman for the purpose of having sex with her. Money is exchanged three ways; man-to-woman and man-to-cleric. And this is perfectly legal. |
You mean the hourly marriages, right. Well, they can be anywhere from an hour to x hours, days, months, etc.
I hear that is especially prevalent for husbands of women who can no longer have sex or men who are away from their wives. I couldn't remember what country it was though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rgv
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Sex under pretense of marriage is OK |
|
|
| Carla wrote: |
I guess we just don't see it the same way. Following that logic, by removing the law, there is absolutely nothing different from a woman who sleeps with a new man every night for any old reason reason and a woman who sleeps with her fiance. And in a society with strict moral laws (even if they are not usually enforced) it leads to even more pressure to remain a virgin until marriage. That is going to have the opposite effect on women's sexual rights.
Oh, to clarify, when I said we don't see the same way, I'm not speaking specifically about you. I do not know if that is your personal opinion or you are just stating the opinion of others to answer my question. Either way, thank you for your clear answer. |
Just trying to clarify how the judge must have viewed it (based on what was written). Not being a woman it doesn't really affect me and thus I really don't care that much outside of a philosophic interest in the argument/reasoning..
I agree that by removing this law there is then nothing different between the women who is with a new man everyday and the one who sleeps only with her fiance, but are you saying also that by removing this law the pressure to remain a virgin will only get greater? Presumably because of a strong societal reaction to counter balance what would be seen as the legalization of promiscuity?
That may well be true, but that's not an issue for judges as the political/social realms are relatively separate (granted modern democracy does tend to poke it's head into the social realm, e.g. healthcare). There's another thread around here about Confucianism as viewed by a Korean prof living in America and someone posted an article by Francis Fukuyama discussing many of these types of things. The man may have been wrong to suggest that the two are compatible (he just wanted to sell his book and his only real battle against the argument was that his critique based his analysis on Japanese Confucianism rather than the original Chinese), but his (correct) suggestion that whatever democracy emerges from Confucian societies looking different from western liberal democracy works here as well (e.g. the feminism that emerges from a Confucian society will look different than it does from western ones). Thus while there may well be the legal recognition of the right for women to do as they please with whom they please (and written in the language of a western viewpoint no less), but that doesn't mean anything about the fact that most women may be pressured to not exercise that right via social/family/religion.
It basically boils down to a question of "just because the rights are on the books, that doesn't mean that people are able to use them." In which case the logical conclusion is to question whether or not the resulting life that women lead in Korea is truly 'sexually free' in a western feminist sense of the team. And if it isn't, doesn't it then mean that other change (i.e. social change) is necessary?
Wow that got dorky really fast... For the record, I fall on the side of if the right to sexual freedom exists, but it isn't being used by people (outside of uncoerced choice) then the people aren't really free. Call me crazy, but most women enjoy sex just as much if not more so than men. I have a hard time believing they're going to CHOOSE to stay virginal and marry later in life outside of some pressure from elsewhere (e.g. school/family/friends/religion). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
earthbound14
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cj1976 wrote: |
| Meanwhile, Korean women are still getting locked up for cheating on their husbands, while the guys can go out and bang hookers on almost every street in Korea. Good job! |
I second the kudos.......good job guys.
I've got my place all rigged with cameras and my wallet stuffed with man wons for the night. Gonna head out for some hos while keeping tabs on the wife. Plan ahead I always say! And now I can lie my way into sex with women without having to worry about it. Sweet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Some people on this board have no idea just how far korean women would go to get revenge.
Korean women don't like to get dumped by their boyfriends. They would go so far as to blackmail the guys' family, telling them she will go to his work and act crazy to embarrass him if they don't give her "compensation."
Its not any surprise that many Korean woman would report their ex-boyfriends that the man promised to marry her, in an effort to get the family to pay her "hush money" to make sure the charge never goes to court.
There is MORE to this than simply a guy lying about marriage to have sex. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ekul
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Location: [Mod Edit]
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| pkang0202 wrote: |
Some people on this board have no idea just how far korean women would go to get revenge.
Korean women don't like to get dumped by their boyfriends. They would go so far as to blackmail the guys' family, telling them she will go to his work and act crazy to embarrass him if they don't give her "compensation."
Its not any surprise that many Korean woman would report their ex-boyfriends that the man promised to marry her, in an effort to get the family to pay her "hush money" to make sure the charge never goes to court.
There is MORE to this than simply a guy lying about marriage to have sex. |
I agree. I think the larger problem on this thread is peoples reading comprehension skills. The OP describes a law that is out dated and embarrassing to both parties yet because it can be construed to be a positive move for Korean men (and women, but that's ignored) it is attacked and a parallel is drawn between other sexist laws that benefit males. I cannot fathom people arguing that this revision of the law has any negative aspects in todays world.
The exact same thing is happening in India right now, their marriage laws penalise men and whole lives/careers are being destroyed by greedy and vindictive families. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
earthbound14
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ekul wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
Some people on this board have no idea just how far korean women would go to get revenge.
Korean women don't like to get dumped by their boyfriends. They would go so far as to blackmail the guys' family, telling them she will go to his work and act crazy to embarrass him if they don't give her "compensation."
Its not any surprise that many Korean woman would report their ex-boyfriends that the man promised to marry her, in an effort to get the family to pay her "hush money" to make sure the charge never goes to court.
There is MORE to this than simply a guy lying about marriage to have sex. |
I agree. I think the larger problem on this thread is peoples reading comprehension skills. The OP describes a law that is out dated and embarrassing to both parties yet because it can be construed to be a positive move for Korean men (and women, but that's ignored) it is attacked and a parallel is drawn between other sexist laws that benefit males. I cannot fathom people arguing that this revision of the law has any negative aspects in todays world.
The exact same thing is happening in India right now, their marriage laws penalise men and whole lives/careers are being destroyed by greedy and vindictive families. |
I hear ya, the law is archaic....but in light of other more archaic laws, this one is kind of a joke. Important, yes, but my opinion is that other laws should have been changed first. Going on about men's rights in lands that have favoured mens rights for the most part is kinda funny. Even though this law is stupid, it is only a drop in the bucket of laws that targeted women.
But, these things are all changing. Many laws against women have already been changed. But my opinion is that when a man can have his ex locked up while he's been out whoring....well....this should have been delt with first and the poor girls who've had their lives ruined by spiteful men should be pretty upset about this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
