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Female Happiness Decreasing?
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:57 pm Post subject: Female Happiness Decreasing?

Article here.

Small clip from the article that summarizes it fairly well:

Quote:

All told, more than 1.3 million men and women have been surveyed over the last 40 years, both here in the U.S. and in developed countries around the world. Wherever researchers have been able to collect reliable data on happiness, the finding is always the same: greater educational, political, and employment opportunities have corresponded to decreases in life happiness for women, as compared to men.

It feels strange to write that sentence, as though I'm mistyping or having a "backwards day," as my daughter would say. But I'm not. Though the trends in the data certainly don't suggest that all women are less happy as compared to men than they were back in 1972, the fact is that, across more than a million people, the trends are there, and they are going in the opposite direction than most would have predicted. And the sizes of these trends are meaningful. According to Stevenson and Wolfers, if you assume a strong link between being unhappy and being unemployed (which there is--the longer you're out of work, the more depressed you become,) the decline in women's happiness is as if women's unemployment has risen from 10% to 18%.

The article itself is more in depth, obviously, and has some data.

caniff

Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject:

Back in the kitchens, ladies.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:08 pm Post subject:

I haven't read the article, but might it have something to do with the fact that we still usually shoulder far more of the domestic burden than our partners? It's hard to be happy when you have no free time and you fall into bed every night feeling absolutely exhausted.

caniff

Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

I haven't read the article, but might it have something to do with the fact that we still usually shoulder far more of the domestic burden than our partners? It's hard to be happy when you have no free time and you fall into bed every night feeling absolutely exhausted.

Maybe we should live separately except for certain events like bumping uglies.

I seem to recall that some Native American tribes had men and women living in different wigwams (I think this happens in some modern day indigenous cultures, as well), and it apparently worked for them.

Thoughts?

geldedgoat

Joined: 05 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:24 pm Post subject:

The majority of people are happy when they're given a role to fulfil and the opportunity and encouragement to do so. Men can still be the breadwinners and the protectors. Unfortunately, women who try to seek out their traditional roles are usually met with harsh criticism, mostly from their fellow women.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:26 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

Men will be perfectly happy working long hours in tough jobs involving physical labour. They too will return home and fall into bed exhausted. And they'll find emotional satisfaction from it. Work, for men, is life.

Do you believe in evolution? And before you answer with something silly, please think about evolution. We are not blank slates. We are a species that has evolved and is evolving. What has changed in the past 40 years is that we now deny any biological relationship to any aspect of our lives, our relationships and our roles. I was standing in an elevator today with a young mother who was completely infatuated with her kid. I am not capable of the emotions she was putting on display. It was something far, far beyond love. The farther women are removed from that - the reason they exist biologically - the more unhappy they will be.

However, I do not deny that women have a second shift that men tend not to have and that this second shift will leave them tired. But there is nothing more pathetic than a middle aged, unmarried, childless woman who stares with violent envy at the new mother in her presence.

But you're a nutty lefty and I'm a nutty righty, so we'll not agree.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

I haven't read the article, but might it have something to do with the fact that we still usually shoulder far more of the domestic burden than our partners?

The article claims female happiness has decreased despite the fact that the portion of the domestic burden men on average carry has increased.

Quote:

For example, between 1975 and today women's housework hours declined from twenty-one per week to seventeen, while men's jumped from six to thirteen.

The disparity is less than it was 30 years ago, and women are supposedly less happy than they were 30 years ago.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject:

geldedgoat wrote:

Unfortunately, women who try to seek out their traditional roles are usually met with harsh criticism, mostly from their fellow women.

This definitely does happen at times, unfortunately.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

I haven't read the article, but might it have something to do with the fact that we still usually shoulder far more of the domestic burden than our partners?

The article claims female happiness has decreased despite the fact that the portion of the domestic burden men on average carry has increased.

Quote:

For example, between 1975 and today women's housework hours declined from twenty-one per week to seventeen, while men's jumped from six to thirteen.

The disparity is less than it was 30 years ago, and women are supposedly less happy than they were 30 years ago.

How is this measured, I wonder? I remember research showing that self-assessments of how much work a man and woman do can be very innaccurate. For example, a man would pick up a fallen towel and consider that 'housework' whether a woman would just do this without thinking and not acknowledge it. I know my husband thinks he's done the lionshare of the work just for bathing the kids in the morning. He doesn't seem to notice that I am the one who ran around washing and selecting and ironing the clothes that the kids then wear. Or that feeding the kids is a hell of a lot harder and time consuming than popping them in the bath and pouring water over them a few times (people who have spent time trying to feed a 2 year old will know what I'm talking about). And what is 'housework' exactly? And how is it divvied up? I don't mind mowing the lawn. I find it a hell of a lot less stressful than trying to get the kids washed dressed and fed. Are there really households where the man does 13 and the woman does 17? Or are all those extra 7 hours of housework clocked up by men who are mostly single (or single for much longer than previous generations)? Most couples I know still have the woman doing far more with the kids or the house than the bloke. I'd like to see how they measure this housework.

Edit: and while their 21 hours of housework have dropped to a 'measly' 17, their other commitments have increased considerably.

And I can say quite truthfully, that while I love time with my kids, I find other work much less stressful and less tiring than childminding. A day at the office is a hell of a lot easier than a day with two very demanding preschoolers.

Last edited by Big_Bird on Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:57 pm; edited 2 times in total

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:54 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

Do you believe in evolution? And before you answer with something silly, please think about evolution. We are not blank slates. We are a species that has evolved and is evolving. What has changed in the past 40 years is that we now deny any biological relationship to any aspect of our lives, our relationships and our roles. I was standing in an elevator today with a young mother who was completely infatuated with her kid. I am not capable of the emotions she was putting on display. It was something far, far beyond love. The farther women are removed from that - the reason they exist biologically - the more unhappy they will be.

You may not experience that because a) you are not a parent and/or b) you are rather lacking in empathy and what-have-you for your fellow man. I've noticed you are a bit lacking in the 'people skills' department. Men can be crazy about their kids too. My husband is completely dotty about the boys. My father was crazy about my first son and my nephew before he died.

mises wrote:

However, I do not deny that women have a second shift that men tend not to have and that this second shift will leave them tired. But there is nothing more pathetic than a middle aged, unmarried, childless woman who stares with violent envy at the new mother in her presence.

Um really? I guess I haven't noticed these women staring with 'violent envy' at me.

Just reading your last quote again. It seems as though you have quite a lot of contempt for middle-aged unmarried childless women. Then again, your contempt button has always been very easily triggered. Interesting.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:09 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

Picking up a fallen towel takes mere seconds, though. Things like that won't impact genuine self-assessment when you're talking about time frames of multiple hours.

Big_Bird wrote:

Are there really households where the man does 13 and the woman does 17? Or are all those extra 7 hours of housework clocked up by men who are mostly single (or single for much longer than previous generations)?

I don't know. If you feel the article's data is wrong, do you have a counter-source? Or do you just feel its wrong for anecdotal reasons?

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

Picking up a fallen towel takes mere seconds, though. Things like that won't impact genuine self-assessment when you're talking about time frames of multiple hours.

That was just one example remembered from an article read long ago. But it shouldn't be hard to understand that line of argument. Exactly how has it been determined that men do 13 hours and women 17? I suspect these hours are calculated from self assessments. But if you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be very interested.

Quote:

Big_Bird wrote:

I don't know. If you feel the article's data is wrong, do you have a counter-source? Or do you just feel its wrong for anecdotal reasons?

[/quote]

I'm very very cynical, for anecdotal reasons. But I just can't take these stats at face value, without knowing more about how they came about.

And I do know one couple where the man did far far more housework than the woman, as well as holding down his own job. But she was pretty disfunctional. In most cases it's clear that it is the women who sacrifice more of their leisure time.

cherrycoke

Joined: 13 Sep 2009

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject:

caniff wrote:

Back in the kitchens, ladies.

those days are long gone. Women have to work now to support the family.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject:

Quote:

You may not experience that because a) you are not a parent and/or b) you are rather lacking in empathy and what-have-you for your fellow man.

No. Women are simply attached to their kids on a different level than are men.

You'll see biology where it suites your ideology and then decide to scream HOUSEWORK when it doesn't suit you? Pause and think about how completely stupid your argument is, especially in the context of the article above which completely refutes your thesis. Providing a clean and safe home for ones kids should not be a source of unhappiness. That's just life. If the family needs extra income the male can get another job or two.

Quote:

Men can be crazy about their kids too. My husband is completely dotty about the boys.

I'm sure he is. I don't remember typing that men don't love their kids. Did I.

Quote:

Um really? I guess I haven't noticed these women staring with 'violent envy' at me.

That's because you're so consumed with your kids that you don't notice. It isn't your fault. It's your biology.

Or, maybe it is about housework. Though all my conservative married friends with stay at home spouses seem to be completely happy in life. Alberta has the highest birthrate in Canada and lowest female labour force participation. And they have enough time to clean the house, get the kids up and ready for an active day. And since we don't live in the 18th century they aren't lonely either. It's a pretty nice life. Too bad most people can't afford it.

Quote:

Just reading your last quote again. It seems as though you have quite a lot of contempt for middle-aged unmarried childless women. Then again, your contempt button has always been very easily triggered. Interesting.

Quote:

I've noticed you are a bit lacking in the 'people skills' department.

Very strong showing tonight big bird. You push a completely dumbass idea + an attempt to derail into flames. And I have the lacking people skills and easily triggered contempt. Woman, know thyself.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:41 pm Post subject:

cherrycoke wrote:

caniff wrote:

Back in the kitchens, ladies.

those days are long gone. Women have to work now to support the family.

Many do. It's quite sad. The social dysfunction from empty homes and latch-key kids is wide. But many families can decide that lower income and a more frugal life is worth the sacrifice for properly raised kids.

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