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AmericanExile
Joined: 04 May 2009
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 Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:37 am Post subject: An answer to morrisonhotel |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| AmericanExile wrote: |
Absolutely not. No. It's terrible. I tend to believe people say this because their teacher said so in High School, but it's boring. This gets my vote for worst opening line ever, and anyone who thinks it is great should be nominated for the conformist of the year award. |
I fail to see why conforming with popular (and critical) opinion would be a bad thing. Having said that, I always preferred Bartleby.
Back on the OT, I've always liked "It began as a mistake". |
Didn't want to hijack the thread so I moved to this one.
It is one thing to think about something and come to a conclusion that other people have come to also. It is something else entirely to simply adopt a belief without thinking about it.
The opening to Moby Dick is bad or at the very least unremarkable which means it is highly unlikely for people to have independently come to the conclusion that it is one of the greatest opening lines of all time at the high rate which they do. This implies thoughtless conformity.
There are times in life when thinking can get in the way. There are times in life when when you just want to veg and not think. I'm fine with these. However, most of the time not using your brain is bad. Not using your brain when someone asks for your opinion is contrary to the whole point of the exercise which is bad.
I've noticed many people make no distinction between themselves and others when it comes to belief. They think that whatever they believe is "their" belief. It doesn't matter to them if they spent any time thinking to come to that conclusion on their own or simply adopted it wholesale without thought. That's convenient because it means you can masquerade as an intellectual without having a single thought of your own. Here's the problem. Repeating with conviction does not make an idea yours. It makes you a cartoon character.
Literary experts are just people, and they are as full of shite as anyone. The question is do you have enough independent thought to call them on it or are you a slave to conformity? |
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roadwork
Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Location: Goin' up the country
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| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| But in the end, an opinion is just an opinion. If you disagree with someone, you have no requirement to present an argument to defend yourself, other than merely saying "I thought it was boring/pretentious/overrated." |
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AmericanExile
Joined: 04 May 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Not all opinions are equal. You aren't required to make an argument, but if you don't it's the same thing as saying "ignore me I have no idea what I'm talking about." You don't inherently deserve to be taken seriously simply because you have the ability to open your mouth or type with your fingers. Others get to decide to ignore you when what you say has no value. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Not all opinions are equal. You aren't required to make an argument, but if you don't it's the same thing as saying "ignore me I have no idea what I'm talking about." You don't inherently deserve to be taken seriously simply because you have the ability to open your mouth or type with your fingers. Others get to decide to ignore you when what you say has no value. |
Good Point. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: |
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The thing is, I'd never heard that line was supposed to be the best opening line- I'd only ever heard that said about, " It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."
Still, I've read a lot of literature from around the time that Moby Dick was written, and that one line cuts through a lot of the formality and fussiness that was the norm at the time, and does a rather good job of setting the tone, in three short words. |
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AmericanExile
Joined: 04 May 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
The thing is, I'd never heard that line was supposed to be the best opening line- I'd only ever heard that said about, " It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."
Still, I've read a lot of literature from around the time that Moby Dick was written, and that one line cuts through a lot of the formality and fussiness that was the norm at the time, and does a rather good job of setting the tone, in three short words. |
That's seems a bit like claiming to be a fan of classical music and not knowing Beethoven was deaf, but have it your own way. |
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mole
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III
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| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| AmericanExile wrote: |
| peppermint wrote: |
The thing is, I'd never heard that line was supposed to be the best opening line- I'd only ever heard that said about, " It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."
Still, I've read a lot of literature from around the time that Moby Dick was written, and that one line cuts through a lot of the formality and fussiness that was the norm at the time, and does a rather good job of setting the tone, in three short words. |
That's seems a bit like claiming to be a fan of classical music and not knowing Beethoven was deaf, but have it your own way. |
Oh, yeah, right.
And I suppose Michelangelo was blind. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| AmericanExile wrote: |
| peppermint wrote: |
The thing is, I'd never heard that line was supposed to be the best opening line- I'd only ever heard that said about, " It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."
Still, I've read a lot of literature from around the time that Moby Dick was written, and that one line cuts through a lot of the formality and fussiness that was the norm at the time, and does a rather good job of setting the tone, in three short words. |
That's seems a bit like claiming to be a fan of classical music and not knowing Beethoven was deaf, but have it your own way. |
I think talking about best first lines as a way to discuss literature is a very shallow and weak way to go about it- better suited to a message board than a classroom, and it seems the only group that's ever cared enough to rate them were some American group, but I'm not American. |
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Lunar Groove Gardener
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Location: 1987 Subaru
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| ergo... |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Have you at all considered, AmericanExile, that the more appropriate way to respond to somebody without interrupting a pre-existing thread might be through private message?
[/civil]
This is blatant trolling. The thread in question as absolutely no intellectual value, only opinions, and your apparent disdain for the critical acclaim of a 150 year old novel (much of that adulation acquired long before you were born) is too pathetic to be taken seriously.
If you have something to say to someone, then say it to them.
If you would like to make a private circus for displaying your elementary rebellion against the canon, you might consider creating a blog.
[civil]
| Quote: |
| I think talking about best first lines as a way to discuss literature is a very shallow and weak way to go about it- better suited to a message board than a classroom, and it seems the only group that's ever cared enough to rate them were some American group, but I'm not American. |
Folks will try to rate anything for attention. I wouldn't attribute a nationality to that tendency. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not ascribing an American tendecy to anything- I'm saying that Moby Dick might seem overrated in the country where it was written, but it doesn't get nearly that much attention in the rest of the world. Since I wasn't exposed to all the hype, because I'm not from that country- how am I conforming? |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
| I'm not ascribing an American tendecy to anything- I'm saying that Moby Dick might seem overrated in the country where it was written, but it doesn't get nearly that much attention in the rest of the world. Since I wasn't exposed to all the hype, because I'm not from that country- how am I conforming? |
I was referring to your statement that implied that ascribing to a qualitative appraisal of literature based upon its first line as contingent upon being an American. I'm just sassin' ya.
And this whole argument has nothing to do with "conformity," but instead an assumption by the OP that the measurement of worthiness in a great first line depends wholly upon its obscurity. It is a typical comment made in English 101 classrooms by some folks who feel they are better read in non-canon texts and therefore must exert adolescent notions of superiority over adherents to canon texts.
There is a great fault in this approach, however, which appears very quickly in the ensuing debate: Canon texts are backed up by large amounts of research and study, and therefore their merits can be very easily verified, meanwhile the "non-conformist, freethinker" must conduct their own study. This is an activity I encourage (study of non-canon texts, not the arrogance), but, alas, the insistence in "non-conformity" typically predicates an adversity to study.
Hence why the OP did not criticize "Call me Ishmael" based on its stylistic, literary, or historical significance as a great opening line, but because an inordinate amount of people appreciated the line and therefore only a conformist, restricted thinker could possibly admire it.
Trolling. |
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AmericanExile
Joined: 04 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
Have you at all considered, AmericanExile, that the more appropriate way to respond to somebody without interrupting a pre-existing thread might be through private message?
[/civil]
This is blatant trolling. The thread in question as absolutely no intellectual value, only opinions, and your apparent disdain for the critical acclaim of a 150 year old novel (much of that adulation acquired long before you were born) is too pathetic to be taken seriously.
If you have something to say to someone, then say it to them.
If you would like to make a private circus for displaying your elementary rebellion against the canon, you might consider creating a blog.
[civil]
| Quote: |
| I think talking about best first lines as a way to discuss literature is a very shallow and weak way to go about it- better suited to a message board than a classroom, and it seems the only group that's ever cared enough to rate them were some American group, but I'm not American. |
Folks will try to rate anything for attention. I wouldn't attribute a nationality to that tendency. |
To .38 special:
I think you miss the point. I thought it was an interesting line of discussion. One that other people might want to add their two cents to. A few have. However, I didn't want to hijack the thread. That's just rude. To be polite, I started one of my own thread. This was intended to be a public discussion. That is totally appropriate, well mannered and within the ToS.
Your post would have been more appropriate as a private message especially as it is off topic. If you are serious about setting a standard, you have to live up to it first. At this moment, you don't qualify as someone who should lecture others about what is appropriate.
To everyone:
I never expressed disdain for Moby Dick. I said the opening line is boring. I have never commented on the rest of the book or it's quality on Dave's. I might love Moby Dick. I just don't like the opening line. You don't have to love everything about something to love something. I think it is odd that I have to explain that.
I hardly think my expressed dislike for a single line could be considered rebellion against the canon. I do think that is an interesting response though because it shows how deeply some people buy into the idea of authority. They take questioning even the smallest part of it as a threat to the whole. .38 special calls me a troll specifically because I opposed to the commonly held view. His is a typical response. How dare I question 150 years of literary opinion. It is pathetic according to him. Why? Literary critics are just people. Despite what anyone might believe they do not have superhuman insight. Shockingly, they don't speak with a single voice. They have been known to disagree with each other. Quite strongly at times. There have in fact been actual rebellions against the canon within the literary world. The rebels have been known to win. That's why it isn't all dead white men in the canon anymore.
Despite the fact that there is no unified opinion of authority, despite the fact that people from Plato to Voltaire to James Burke have given us every reason to question received wisdom there is still and probably always will be a large percentage of humans who are upset by the very idea of doubt. Given their way they would may intellectual slaves of us all. One of the tools they use to try and get their way is to vilify and ridicule people who express opinions outside the accepted.
.38 special calls me a troll specifically because I disagree with 150 years literary opinion.
I grew up near a river that flows north. Since I was a boy people have told me that's not possible. People have been known to become very upset. I have been called every name in the book because I have said I grew up near a river that flows north. I read books in science classes in my town through which the river flowed north that said rivers flow south in the northern hemisphere. Magnetism and bird migrations blah, blah, blah.
My education in how full of shite even experts with fancy degrees and high IQs can be goes back to childhood. I express opinions outside conventional wisdom because there is no reason not to if that is your honest opinion. Some conventional wisdom is actual wisdom. Some has just never been questioned. When it is, it falls apart. The only way to know the difference is to question it. Therefore, the value of conventional wisdom is not the truth it may or may not hold but that it gives us an entry point to start doubting so that we may find our own truth.
When I ask myself what is so interesting about "Call me Ishmael" the best I can come up with is the name is odd. "Call me Bob" would have been worse, but the name isn't so interesting that that becomes a great line. The argument that it was outstanding for its day doesn't matter to me. I concede there are worse opening lines. Sucking less than your contemporaries isn't an argument for greatness. It's blah. It's like opening a book by saying I had a glass of milk for breakfast. So what?
The idea that this line sets the tone for Moby Dick leaves me baffled. One is a guy at a cocktail party the other is an obsessed stalker. You want a line that prepares you for Moby Dick? How about "it would never end between them."
Am I supposed to be impressed by the irony that he tells readers who can't respond to him in any way to "call him?" Is that the clever bit? OMG it's like he's my bff from the first sentence. Come on. It isn't interesting or clever to ask me to do something I can't do. It's annoying. It doesn't draw me into the book. If anything it makes me not want to read the book. It's like a lead off batter that never gets on base. |
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Bondrock
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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...call me AmericanExile.
Do we really need 3 threads about this one issue? |
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AmericanExile
Joined: 04 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| peppermint wrote: |
| I'm not ascribing an American tendecy to anything- I'm saying that Moby Dick might seem overrated in the country where it was written, but it doesn't get nearly that much attention in the rest of the world. Since I wasn't exposed to all the hype, because I'm not from that country- how am I conforming? |
I was referring to your statement that implied that ascribing to a qualitative appraisal of literature based upon its first line as contingent upon being an American. I'm just sassin' ya.
And this whole argument has nothing to do with "conformity," but instead an assumption by the OP that the measurement of worthiness in a great first line depends wholly upon its obscurity. It is a typical comment made in English 101 classrooms by some folks who feel they are better read in non-canon texts and therefore must exert adolescent notions of superiority over adherents to canon texts.
There is a great fault in this approach, however, which appears very quickly in the ensuing debate: Canon texts are backed up by large amounts of research and study, and therefore their merits can be very easily verified, meanwhile the "non-conformist, freethinker" must conduct their own study. This is an activity I encourage (study of non-canon texts, not the arrogance), but, alas, the insistence in "non-conformity" typically predicates an adversity to study.
Hence why the OP did not criticize "Call me Ishmael" based on its stylistic, literary, or historical significance as a great opening line, but because an inordinate amount of people appreciated the line and therefore only a conformist, restricted thinker could possibly admire it.
Trolling. |
Now here at least is an argument. Although a bad one for the following reasons.
My argument against "Call me Ishmael" was never that it is popular. My argument was it is terrible and boring. I presented a reason why a line this bad is thought of as great by so many people. I never said it was bad that so many people think it is great. I merely explained why I believed they thought that. You see to me the line is so bad, so obviously bad that it's popularity needs explaining. I felt compelled. As I have already said, there is a difference between many people coming to the same conclusion, which I have no problem with, and people merely adopting a conclusion handed to them without reflection of their own.
Being against something because it is popular is as silly as being for it because it is popular.
This idea that I measure worthiness by obscurity is entirely a fiction made up by you. You may have come to that conclusion honestly by a misread of what I wrote. You do seem a bit preoccupied by this idea of popularity and perhaps that lens, that frame you work from has obscured the truth from you. Maybe not. Can't really say.
I will tell you this. I never think about the canon unless others mention it.
I don't feel the need to rebel against it or conform to it. I'm utilitarian and it has no use in my life. I read what I like. I read what others suggest if they make it sound good. I read books I hear about on NPR. I read the books I get for Christmas. I don't read books because they're in the canon. I don't avoid reading books because they are in the canon. The canon serves no purpose in my life. I have no reason to think about it since I graduated. Why would anyone? It's just a list. It's not even a list. It's the idea of a list that nobody can agree on. At this time in history, that is sort of the point. The purpose of the canon in our time is to give people something to argue about. Something they can feel passionate about. That is fantastic. It just doesn't interest me personally.
There is a funny comic I saw once (it might have been a Far Side) where there are two hills. One is labeled conformists and the other is labeled non-conformists. Everybody is on the conformist hill but is running toward the non-conformist hill. It's funny, but flawed.
The dichotomy you have created for us is flawed in the same way. You have mature canonists and immature canon rebels. The flaw is this. There are other options.
You are the second person who wants to force a position on me that I did not take and do not accept. If you want to argue with me then argue with me and not whatever ghost your trying to exorcise. I can only guess that some immature canon rebel embarrassed you in your English 101 classroom and you still smart from it all these years later. Move on.
Last edited by AmericanExile on Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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