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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:09 pm Post subject: Clamping Down on Thought Crimes - EU Equal Treatment Law |
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A new EU directive, likely to come into law quite soon will further erode people's right to free speech.
http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/10/if-all-goes-as-planned.php
On April 2, the European Parliament passed the �directive on implementing the principle of equal treatment between persons irrespective of religion or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation,� 363 votes to 226. The directive applies to social protection and health care, social benefits, education and access to goods and services, including housing.
Sounds nice and fluffy right? Read on.
Under the directive, harassment - defined as conduct � with the purpose or effect of violating the dignity of a person and of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment � - is deemed a form of discrimination.
Harassment, as vaguely defined in the directive, allows an individual to accuse someone of discrimination merely for expressing something the individual allegedly perceives as creating an �offensive environment.� The definition is so broad that anyone who feels intimidated or offended can easily bring legal action against those whom he feels are responsible. Moreover, the directive shifts the burden of proof onto the accused, who has to prove the negative, i.e. demonstrate that he or she did not create an environment which intimidated or offended the complainant. If the accused fails to do so, he or she can be sentenced to paying an unlimited amount of compensation for �harassment.�
Welcome to the EU, where the right to be not "offended" will soon become law. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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I feel the lack of freedom of speech in Europe is creating an offensive environment to people who share my belief in the importance of freedom of expression. Somehow I doubt I or people like me could claim benefit under this law.
This sounds like a law that will benefit Muslim immigrants most of all, to be honest. Seriously, what's wrong with Europe? |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:20 am Post subject: |
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Actually, it sounds more like something that is meant to appease the hypersensitivity of Jews and Muslims alike.
With Muslims, there has been hypersensitivity about the Muhammad cartoon, "Jewish" cookies, etc.
With Jews, it's already a crime in some parts of Europe for someone to believe out loud that the Holocaust didn't happen and it seems like they're always complaining about something, similar to the Muslims.
Even here in America where we're supposed to have free speech, there's the current controversy from Jewish groups angry about a Penn State t-shirt for the big game against Ohio State because they say the vertical stripe (like the Penn State football helmet) intersecting with the words "Penn State" on the chest look too much like a cross. At least two Jewish organizations, the ADL and a campus group called Hillel, have tried to get the t-shirts pulled from the shelves. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
| Even here in America where we're supposed to have free speech, there's the current controversy from Jewish groups angry about a Penn State t-shirt for the big game against Ohio State because they say the vertical stripe (like the Penn State football helmet) intersecting with the words "Penn State" on the chest look too much like a cross. At least two Jewish organizations, the ADL and a campus group called Hillel, have tried to get the t-shirts pulled from the shelves. |
Controversy and trying to get things pulled from shelves is totally fine; these things are also part of freedom of expression. It's only when it moves into the realm of legislation that there's truly a problem.
Freedom of expression includes the right to try to persuade society that idea X is wrong and should be opposed. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| It's only when it moves into the realm of legislation that there's truly a problem. |
There are lawsuits all of the time where people say they were harrassed because of religion. Last year, there was a Jewish trucker who filed a lawsuit because he felt uncomfortable delivering Christmas trees. Where I used to work, a Muslim driver sued the company because he was assigned a beer load.
In the USA, if an idiot employee shows up to work wearing a Nazi SS uniform and Jewish employee complains about it, it's important for the company to fire the employee who wore the uniform, because if he was to show up again wearing it, the Jewish employee would easily win a large sum of money in a harrassment lawsuit against the employer in an American court. It would be a slam dunk case. So I really don't see how the European laws are all that different.
Back in the summer of 2000, I shaved my head into a mohawk because I thought it would feel good in the summer and to a lesser extent as sort of a Native American pride thing. In the office, we were about to have a conference call with a couple of terminals in other cities and the telephone was on speakerphone. A driver walked into our office and instantly asked about the mohawk and I told him, "It's hot and I thought it would feel good, but I can't believe how the sweat drips all over the place now that there's no hair to soak it up. I wish I hadn't done it now." The driver didn't know the phone was on speakerphone and replied, "I hear that, Reggie. I've been sweating like a n----r at a Ku Klux Rally all day." The regional supervisor was on the other end and heard it. The driver was disciplined with a written write-up and had to go to the corporate headquarters for sensitivity training. The supervisor said if one of the black fleet managers had been on the phone, they would've had no choice but to fire the driver. Companies can get their asses sued off over that kind of stuff. The same day, the shop foreman said "How" to me instead of hello. I didn't care since I don't think he meant anything derrogatory by it, but if I had complained, his boss would've had no choice but to discipline him. One driver got fired in 1998 or '99 because he had sent in a random Qualcomm message saying that Scary Spice was a "n----r bitch" and that he would like to spit on her a-hole. Black female dispatchers read it so that driver was routed in and fired. It was good policy, since it's untelling how a driver like that might behave on a customer's dock. But at the same time, the company HAD to fire him before he did it again and got them sued by some of the black female dispatchers. It happens.
Bob Griese got suspended by ESPN the other day for saying a Colombian race car driver would be out eating a taco. Obviously it was in poor taste and offended some of the viewing audience, but his employer had no choice to suspend him because if they didn't and he continued to make racist remarks, it would increase the vulnerability of ESPN getting sued by Hispanic employees if Griese did it again without a suspension.
Although it's in good taste for employers to crack down on this type of behavior, the primary motivating factor is to avoid harrassment lawsuits. Stuff like this goes to the courtroom all of the time in America. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Clamping Down on Thought Crimes - EU Equal Treatment Law |
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| bigverne wrote: |
Under the directive, harassment - defined as conduct � with the purpose or effect of violating the dignity of a person and of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment � - is deemed a form of discrimination. |
Will they prosecute this:
http://www.rights.no/publisher/publisher.asp?id=59&tekstid=2891
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As the neighborhood has become increasingly Muslim, it�s also been increasingly plagued by gang violence, burglaries, car-burnings, vandalism, and other offenses. Over the years, the members of Tingbjerg�s non-Muslim minority have come to feel increasingly vulnerable and ill at ease in their community. Many have moved out.
Among the latter is Ulrich Vogel. He is German and gay � and until recently he also happened to be the pastor at Tingbjerg Church. But now, after seventeen years in that position, he�s fled � moved out of the church residence, gone underground, taken sick leave, and begun psychological treatment.
Why? Because in recent years Vogel has been the repeated target of crime and harassment by local Muslims. Vogel refused to discuss his situation with Uwe Max Jensen, who reported on the story for sappho.dk on October 6. But Jensen found police reports in local newspapers that describe acts of vandalism at the church on March 26 and August 5 of this year and a break-in at the church residence on August 16. The latter crime involved the destruction and robbery of much of Vogel�s personal property, including his computer. And this is apparently only the tip of the iceberg: a member of the church congregation told Jensen that the residence has been broken into �countless� times.
�It�s a whole neighborhood that�s been taken hostage,� Vogel said of Tingbjerg, complaining that �one is left to fend for oneself� there because �the police don�t do enough.� The problems, he said, can�t be dismissed as ordinary teenage hijinks: �It feels like pure malice.� The pastor recalled that last March, after local youths threw rocks at buses, resulting in a disruption of the public transport system, he spoke out in a local newspaper and on the TV news about the neighborhood�s ordeal � an action which, he suggests, may help explain why he appears to have been singled out for repeated victimization.
Needless to say, Tingbjerg is not unique. Western Europe is full of neighborhoods that are at various stages of the process that Tingbjerg is now going through � a process that may be fairly described as a gradual shift of power whereby these areas end up being Muslim-controlled enclaves that are no-go zones for non-Muslims (even those, like Vogel, who are there to serve the community). As time goes by, more and more European neighborhoods are slipping quietly into the first stage of this process � and are eventually reaching the point at which, yes, even cops and firefighters don�t dare show up unless they�re accompanied by a sizable contingent of armed and armored backup. At present, to be sure, things are considerably worse in many other European cities (such as Bradford and Malm�) than they are in Copenhagen or any other Danish city. But as Ralf Pittelkow wrote in Jyllands Posten on October 21, �Tingbjerg may turn out to be just the beginning� for Denmark.
If there is to be any hope for Europe, the truth about the continent�s Tingbjergs must be addressed honestly. Yet it�s precisely this that the great majority of Europeans in positions of political and cultural power refuse to do. Pittelkow notes that while young Muslim predators themselves routinely admit that their actions are connected to �their ethnic and Muslim identity� and represent �a struggle for power and honor,� politicians, journalists, and academic �experts� routinely reject any such analysis. So, far too often, do people in official positions who are close enough to the situation on the ground to know better. For example, Pittelkow cites a �well-meaning� woman who holds a local post in Tingbjerg and who, he writes, has warned that discussions of the Vogel case had better be free of any mention of �ethnic and religious factors.� This woman, Pittelkow observes, �apparently hasn�t got the foggiest idea of what is going on in the real world, but just wants to show that she is a good person. But kind words won�t make real problems go away.� Alas, this woman�s numbers are legion in Western Europe, where all too many public officials at every level see it as their primary responsibility not to preserve liberal civilization, social order, and public safety but to serve as exemplars of multicultural virtue � a role that compels them to avert their eyes meekly from the systematic barbarism that is destroying the lives of more and more innocent Europeans like Ulrich Vogel. |
The state wants to make it illegal to honestly speak of the dysfunction that the state has imported. It is a Hail Mary. And it won't work.
Last edited by mises on Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:47 am; edited 2 times in total |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| This woman, Pittelkow observes, �apparently hasn�t got the foggiest idea of what is going on in the real world, but just wants to show that she is a good person. |
This sums up so many of those on the multi-cultural PC left. They have no desire to confront the facts on the ground, but are simply obssessed with being seen to be tolerant. |
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Triban
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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This whole harassment/tolerance thing is stupid; people have a right AS HUMAN BEINGS to say whatever they want.
If it is racist, then someone else should call him a racist. This shouldn't be policed or even wrote about in the news paper; only if it escalates to actual violence, disturbing the peace, or destruction of property should the police/law become involved.
Words are WORDS and things like this are making people less human and more automaton.
The world is way too sensitive today.
As no doubt our founding fathers would say if someone reported verbal harassment..."Nut up or shut up." |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Triban wrote: |
This whole harassment/tolerance thing is stupid; people have a right AS HUMAN BEINGS to say whatever they want.
If it is racist, then someone else should call him a racist. This shouldn't be policed or even wrote about in the news paper ... |
It shouldn't be policed, but it's totally reasonable to write about it in the newspaper, especially if the racist in question is a public figure. Many people would be interested if, say, Harry Reid started making racist comments. If it's news worthy, and it's true, why shouldn't it be reported upon? |
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Triban
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Triban wrote: |
This whole harassment/tolerance thing is stupid; people have a right AS HUMAN BEINGS to say whatever they want.
If it is racist, then someone else should call him a racist. This shouldn't be policed or even wrote about in the news paper ... |
It shouldn't be policed, but it's totally reasonable to write about it in the newspaper, especially if the racist in question is a public figure. Many people would be interested if, say, Harry Reid started making racist comments. If it's news worthy, and it's true, why shouldn't it be reported upon? |
I think it's dehumanization and frankly a scare tactic that causes people to become something that they aren't; if he isn't making racist comments out loud for fear of being reported on, then he would become a closet racist that no one would know about due to his own discretion.
Now tell me, which is worse? A racist pretending not to be, or a racist saying they are a racist?
Disclaimer: Hypothetical situation |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Triban wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Triban wrote: |
This whole harassment/tolerance thing is stupid; people have a right AS HUMAN BEINGS to say whatever they want.
If it is racist, then someone else should call him a racist. This shouldn't be policed or even wrote about in the news paper ... |
It shouldn't be policed, but it's totally reasonable to write about it in the newspaper, especially if the racist in question is a public figure. Many people would be interested if, say, Harry Reid started making racist comments. If it's news worthy, and it's true, why shouldn't it be reported upon? |
I think it's dehumanization and frankly a scare tactic that causes people to become something that they aren't; if he isn't making racist comments out loud for fear of being reported on, then he would become a closet racist that no one would know about due to his own discretion.
Now tell me, which is worse? A racist pretending not to be, or a racist saying they are a racist?
Disclaimer: Hypothetical situation |
If his racist comments aren't being reported on, most people -- including most of his constituents -- wouldn't know he's a racist anyway, so the net result would be exactly the same: people who wouldn't vote for him if they knew he was a racist voting for him because they don't know the truth.
Historically, it's been proven that even if racist comments are reported on, racists still slip up and make them. So I'm not too worried. |
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Triban
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Neither am I; I will cede the fact that people in power SHOULD be reported on, but I do not believe your average person is news-worthy because of their beliefs and disposition (even if those aren't "politically correct').
I for one am not a racist, sometimes I can be dickish though. I still reserve every right for an asshole to call me a cracker or some other derogatory racial slur, or anything else deemed as inappropriate; that is their prerogative, I can always be the bigger man and walk away. There are nice people, there are dicks, there are in-betweens. Leave it at that IMO. |
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