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davesucksnfl
Joined: 11 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: foreign vs domestic, yellow sea vs west sea |
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I'll start off by saying that I think this whole east/west sea thing is a pathetic joke.
But with the recent exchange of fire all of the Korean media used 'the west sea'. the international articles, be they AP or other, were essentially identical to the Korean media articles, but all of the international press articles either used yellow sea or removed the west seas.
Anyone else have thoughts on this? Is it a sign of disrespect? is it a sign of crazy korea? |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, prior to this I recall seeing Yellow Sea used in Korea before. Their insistence on ONLY going after the Sea of Japan was hilarious.
But, this current episode of West Sea is a mistake. What's also interesting is some articles haven't even named the body of water at all, saying they exchanged fire off the west coast.
People reading Korean sources from overseas---which isn't all that unlikely considering it was a Korean firefight---probably have never heard of "West Sea" used like this. I'm sure they'll guess from context what the body of water is, but intentionally giving an incorrect name only causes confusion and is a sign of arrogance. Same goes for calling the Sea of Japan "East Sea." That's the Korean name, in Korean, but East Sea and West Sea shouldn't be used in English. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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I truly fail to see how the name, Yellow Sea could be offensive to Koreans. And trying to rename it the West Sea, is just a huge amount of silliness.
Now, in the case of the Sea of Japan, I can understand the resentment given the past colonial history and so forth. Actually, getting the Sea of Japan renamed as the East Sea, would make some sense. After all, it is the eastern most sea of Asia.
However, if South Korea wishes to be successful at getting the Sea of Japan renamed, it is going to have to win over some other nations to its cause. I am sure less xenophobia on their part, would greatly help...
Of course, in the grand scheme of things, this is ultimately a very trivial issue. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyone else want to start a cause for renaming the Gulf of Mexico to "The Southern Gulf"? |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| They should name the Sea of Japan the Dongnishi Sea or Nishidong, (west in Japanese, east in Korean) just flip a coin to see who gets their name first. Or kawi bawi bo. Most people wouldn't be able to pronounce it and still call it the Sea of Japan but the baby would get his bottle. |
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steveinincheon
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: in The Shadows of Gyeyangsan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I really think a lot of the resentment of the name Sea of Japan in English stems from Dokdo. If Dokdo is an islet located in the Sea of Japan, then logically it would seem that Japan would have more of a claim to it. The East Sea issue reminds me of when the Seoul Government passed an ordinance changing the Chinese name of the city of Seoul to one that was closer to the Korean pronounciation. Of course no one in China paid any attention to this whatsoever. However, most Koreans I've met don't have a problem saying Yellow Sea in English - its just the Sea of Japan that causes problems. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| steveinincheon wrote: |
| I really think a lot of the resentment of the name Sea of Japan in English stems from Dokdo. If Dokdo is an islet located in the Sea of Japan, then logically it would seem that Japan would have more of a claim to it. The East Sea issue reminds me of when the Seoul Government passed an ordinance changing the Chinese name of the city of Seoul to one that was closer to the Korean pronounciation. Of course no one in China paid any attention to this whatsoever. However, most Koreans I've met don't have a problem saying Yellow Sea in English - its just the Sea of Japan that causes problems. |
Well, actually a lot of people in China now call it 首尔 "Shou'er" (a transliteration of 'Seoul'), instead of 汉城 "Hancheng" (City on the Han [River]) which was the name of Seoul during the Chosun Dynasty.
"Hancheng" just sounds much better than "Shou'er," so a lot of people in China still say Hancheng (or use both interchangeably), but your claim that "no one in China paid any attention to this whatsoever" is simply not true. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah officialy they'll call it Shou'er but I've heard that's just to placate the Koreans as the "han" 汉 in the name 汉城 is the same character the Chinese use for their own culture (汉语 "Hanyu"=language of the Han people=Mandarin) and Korea felt snubbed that they couldn't get their own special Korean name (surprise). So now officialy it's Shou'er but a lot of people in colloquial speech call it Hancheng (so I've been told).
Last edited by Old Gil on Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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oskinny1
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Location: Right behind you!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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I tried to explain it to my students as this:
os1-The English name is the Sea of Japan. You can call it the East Sea in the Korean language.
students-NO!!!! Japan BAD!!! Japan want steal Dokdo!!
os1-That is irrelevant, we are talking language not good vs. bad.
students-NO!!! Japan biantae!!!
os1-OK, since America is "beautiful country" in Korean, you must now call all Americans "handsome" or "beautiful" when referring to them. OK?
Students-NO!!! Englishee is "American", Korean is "migook-in".
os1-Exactly. |
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supernaut
Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Location: Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
I truly fail to see how the name, Yellow Sea could be offensive to Koreans. And trying to rename it the West Sea, is just a huge amount of silliness.
Now, in the case of the Sea of Japan, I can understand the resentment given the past colonial history and so forth. Actually, getting the Sea of Japan renamed as the East Sea, would make some sense. After all, it is the eastern most sea of Asia.
However, if South Korea wishes to be successful at getting the Sea of Japan renamed, it is going to have to win over some other nations to its cause. I am sure less xenophobia on their part, would greatly help...
Of course, in the grand scheme of things, this is ultimately a very trivial issue. |
so Konglishman, are you saying that Japan is NOT part of Asia. The East Sea is NOT the eastern most sea of Asia, because it is West of Japan. SO wouldn't calling a sea WEST of Japan the East Sea be a little strange?
I think this small man syndrome on the part of the Koreans is a joke and really they can call it the East Sea in Korean, but in English, it's not their language so why should they care. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Old Gil wrote: |
| Yeah officialy they'll call it Shou'er but I've heard that's just to placate the Koreans as the "han" 汉 in the name 汉城 is the same character the Chinese use for their own culture (汉语 "Hanyu"=language of the Han people=Mandarin) and Korea felt snubbed that they couldn't get their own special Korean name (surprise). So now officialy it's Shou'er but a lot of people in colloquial speech call it Hancheng (so I've been told). |
That's stupid, Hangang is 汉江 (漢江 in traditional characters). It's the name the Koreans chose for their own river and capital city, eons ago. That can't actually be the reason.
I think they just wanted Chinese to start calling the city by its new name instead of its old name. A Chinese person calling Seoul "Hancheng" is kind of like us calling Istanbul "Constantinople," or calling Ho Chi Minh City "Saigon." |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen Yellow Sea (황해) used widely in Korean. Generally speaking, it seems to me that West Sea tends to be used when the context is a domestic Korean one (or of course an INTER-Korean one, as in this case).
Most Korean maps I've seen of the wider region have labelled it as the Yellow Sea. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| Old Gil wrote: |
| Yeah officialy they'll call it Shou'er but I've heard that's just to placate the Koreans as the "han" 汉 in the name 汉城 is the same character the Chinese use for their own culture (汉语 "Hanyu"=language of the Han people=Mandarin) and Korea felt snubbed that they couldn't get their own special Korean name (surprise). So now officialy it's Shou'er but a lot of people in colloquial speech call it Hancheng (so I've been told). |
That's stupid, Hangang is 汉江 (漢江 in traditional characters). It's the name the Koreans chose for their own river and capital city, eons ago. That can't actually be the reason.
I think they just wanted Chinese to start calling the city by its new name instead of its old name. A Chinese person calling Seoul "Hancheng" is kind of like us calling Istanbul "Constantinople," or calling Ho Chi Minh City "Saigon." |
Why is that stupid? Korea didn't even name its own country, nor did Japan. he Chinese did. Riben 日本 means "Sun Origin" as in 'to the east of us, the Chinese folks', Japan just ran with it.
What makes you think Korea had a hand in their rivers? The yangban were way up on China's junk anyway and they were doing the heavy lifting in terms of administration so if it was named by the Koreans, they were kowtowing to China. 汉 is and has been the shorthand for Chinese culture and civilization since the apex of the Han in the 1st Century AD. There's no way these guys were unaware of this.
I mean it switched in the 20th Century, so it's not about old vs. modern sounding, as it's a matter of a generation or two. |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| supernaut wrote: |
so Konglishman, are you saying that Japan is NOT part of Asia. The East Sea is NOT the eastern most sea of Asia, because it is West of Japan.
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You've obviously never lived in Japan, mate 
Many Japanese will frequently remark that they do not really consider themselves a part of Asia. If you live in Japan, you'll often hear people talk of "travelling to an Asian country" when they get some time off work. It's also occasionally amusing to see the disgusted reaction some people have when you answer the question of why you came to Japan with "because I always wanted to live in Asia". To be fair to the Japanese, many Britons used to do pretty much the same thing with respect to Europe, although various factors have recently made that much less the case.
| supernaut wrote: |
SO wouldn't calling a sea WEST of Japan the East Sea be a little strange?
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There's some merit in this point. But the sea is east of the Asian continent, and is the easternmost sea that's entirely a part of Asia. Although west of most of Japan, there are parts of the lengthy Japanese archipelago from which it would actually be to the east. Also, the Norwegians don't appear to have a problem with the North Sea being mostly to their south.
Not that I think calling it the East Sea is the answer, however. It's a name Japan would never accept and the solution surely has to be to use something that both sides are happy to use. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| supernaut wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
I truly fail to see how the name, Yellow Sea could be offensive to Koreans. And trying to rename it the West Sea, is just a huge amount of silliness.
Now, in the case of the Sea of Japan, I can understand the resentment given the past colonial history and so forth. Actually, getting the Sea of Japan renamed as the East Sea, would make some sense. After all, it is the eastern most sea of Asia.
However, if South Korea wishes to be successful at getting the Sea of Japan renamed, it is going to have to win over some other nations to its cause. I am sure less xenophobia on their part, would greatly help...
Of course, in the grand scheme of things, this is ultimately a very trivial issue. |
so Konglishman, are you saying that Japan is NOT part of Asia. The East Sea is NOT the eastern most sea of Asia, because it is West of Japan. SO wouldn't calling a sea WEST of Japan the East Sea be a little strange?
I think this small man syndrome on the part of the Koreans is a joke and really they can call it the East Sea in Korean, but in English, it's not their language so why should they care. |
Are you suggesting that the Pacific Ocean is the eastern most sea of Asia? Perhaps, you should examine what the difference is between the definitions of an ocean and a sea... |
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