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Exciting Grammar Question!!!

 
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Hamlet



Joined: 18 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:57 pm    Post subject: Exciting Grammar Question!!! Reply with quote

I wrote the following sentence...

"On the days I was home with my child, particularly when I had to do things like change messy diapers and clean up vomited milk, I was envious of the professional women I knew."

My editor gave me the feedback...

Change the phrase "change messy diapers and clean up" to "changing messy diapers and cleaning up"

With the additional comment...

Don�t they have to be gerunds to come after the preposition �like�?

Is there an exception to the rule that prepositions have to be followed by gerunds, or is my sentence wrong?

Thanks!


Last edited by Hamlet on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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robot



Joined: 07 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your editor is right about the edit, though I'm sure the sentence he gave was "changing messy diapers and cleaning up vomited milk" to keep the parallelism.

What you wrote might be passable (though grammatically wrong) in speech, but it's quite awkward written.

"Things" is a noun. "Clean up" is a verb (a phrasal one).

"I do things like clean up" is awkward -- to compare, this is the same grammatical form as "I do things like change messy diapers".

"I do things like cleaning up" flows much better, since "cleaning up" in this gerund form now functions as a noun.

As for the rule of following prepositions by gerunds, this is a confusing way of looking at it, and not at all the correct way. So just look to "things" as the word that dictates the word form needed.
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Privateer



Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"things" is a noun.

"do things" is a verb.

I say the OP's sentence is fine. And if it isn't fine, then I guess the way people normally talk is also not fine.
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Chokse



Joined: 22 May 2009

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The editor is correct and the writer should use gerunds. Furthermore, "the way people normally talk" is very rarely "fine". In conversational English, grammar is often butchered, especially by native speakers. In formal writing, one is expected to follow grammar rules.
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Privateer wrote:
"things" is a noun.

"do things" is a verb.

I say the OP's sentence is fine. And if it isn't fine, then I guess the way people normally talk is also not fine.


I agree that the OPs sentence is fine...prescriptivist grammar is an odd mix of elitist ideals.
However, not knowing what the sentence was being used for...ie...if it is teaching grammar...then...perhaps best to stick to some formal grammar.

Not sure I agree that "do things" would be considered a verb...or even verbal for that matter..."things" still carries with it its noun status.

Usage is a fairly good gauge for describing language...and bending/breaking formal grammar rules, especially in writing, is often playfully done by even the most gifted of writers.
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BreakfastInBed



Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Location: Gyeonggi do

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

robot wrote:
"I do things like cleaning up" flows much better


I disagree with this. I get what you are saying about 'things' relating to nouns but I think the sense of the passage works better, and sounds better to my ears, with the simple verbs.

The reason being, 'do things like' is not really essential to the meaning. They are extra words that make the sentence sound a bit breezy, more like common speech (which can be a perfectly acceptable stylistic choice), and convey the sense that these are but two examples of unpleasant things I had to do. I had to change messy diapers and I had to clean up vomited milk. That is how I read it, with 'do things like' kind of wedged in there. While it might be technically correct to use gerunds, I think it destroys the natural accent of the base 'had to change and clean' and tortures the sense, resulting in a case of correct grammar and a 'wrong' sentence.

I see two easy solutions other than your editor's. Simply take out 'do things like,' or replace 'had to' with 'was' and use the past progressive tense. "On the days I was home with my child, particularly when I was doing things like changing messy diapers and cleaning up vomited milk..." I prefer the latter as it leaves it to the reader to read changing and cleaning as either gerunds or present participles, accenting them in conjunction with like or was as it suits him or her.

OR leave it as is and claim artistic license.


Last edited by BreakfastInBed on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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T-J



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

robot wrote:
Your editor is right about the edit, though I'm sure the sentence he gave was "changing messy diapers and cleaning up vomited milk" to keep the parallelism.

What you wrote might be passable (though grammatically wrong) in speech, but it's quite awkward written.

"Things" is a noun. "Clean up" is a verb (a phrasal one).

"I do things like clean up" is awkward -- to compare, this is the same grammatical form as "I do things like change messy diapers".

"I do things like cleaning up" flows much better, since "cleaning up" in this gerund form now functions as a noun.

As for the rule of following prepositions by gerunds, this is a confusing way of looking at it, and not at all the correct way. So just look to "things" as the word that dictates the word form needed.


+2
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Hamlet



Joined: 18 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies everyone. I appreciate the feedback.

I think I got the correct answer, though, from another forum called Word Reference. The key to this sentence is realizing that the word "like" is not being used as a preposition; it's being used in place of "such as." Here is the exact answer I got, in case your interested.

Your sentence is grammatically correct.

Here, 'like' is not functioning prepositionally, and the verb forms are governed by 'had to':

On the days I was home with my child, particularly when I had to do [INFINITIVE] things like (= such as) change [INFINITIVE] messy diapers and clean up [INFINITIVE] vomited milk, I was envious of the professional women I knew.

It's not the same use of 'like' as in:

I felt like (*= such as) throwing up, myself.

If any of you are writers or editors, or just have grammar questions, Word Reference is a great forum.

Cheers
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hamlet wrote:
Thanks for the replies everyone. I appreciate the feedback.

I think I got the correct answer, though, from another forum called Word Reference. The key to this sentence is realizing that the word "like" is not being used as a preposition; it's being used in place of "such as." Here is the exact answer I got, in case your interested.

Your sentence is grammatically correct.

Here, 'like' is not functioning prepositionally, and the verb forms are governed by 'had to':

On the days I was home with my child, particularly when I had to do [INFINITIVE] things like (= such as) change [INFINITIVE] messy diapers and clean up [INFINITIVE] vomited milk, I was envious of the professional women I knew.

It's not the same use of 'like' as in:

I felt like (*= such as) throwing up, myself.

If any of you are writers or editors, or just have grammar questions, Word Reference is a great forum.

Cheers


This is a nice answer...but unfortunately, it is not quite complete either.

..."had to" does indicate(not dictate) the verb form...which would make "change' and 'clean up' perfectly correct.
Unfortunately, when you add had to (do things like) you have modified the verb from the infinitive to the gerund...as was mentioned already..."things" is a noun...and would now prescriptively take a gerund.

However...as mentioned earlier..both forms are acceptable...though I can understand why a prescriptivist would be up-in-arms over the gerund only usage...though not because of "like".

Quite frankly, I see the "like" as a preposition as a strawman argument...it has nothing to do with the verb form in this case...as demonstrated in your answer....like is not acting as a preposition.

The answer you received from Word Reference is a great source to show why maintaining the infinitive is also a defendable grammar point.

Well done on getting that information and sharing it with us here.
Always nice to be well informed.
Thanks for the question...and the answer. Cool
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