Korean Job Discussion Forums

raewon · Joined: 16 Jun 2009

I can't think straight right now, so I'm having problems with something that should be simple.

A: Who study and observe celestial bodies they discover in space?
B: Astronomers study and observe celestial bodies they discover in space.

Shouldn't "studies" and "observes" be used in the question?

Thanks a million candy canes.

upthecreek · Joined: 23 Dec 2009

Who studies and observes celestial bodies discovered in space?

Astronomers study and observe celestial bodies when given space.

Celestial Bodies are observed by astronomers when given space.

When given, astronomers are observed by celestial space bodies.

raewon · Joined: 16 Jun 2009

Thanks for your reply upthecreek. But "they discover in space" has to stay. I'm not sure why, that's just what I've been told.

BreakfastInBed · Joined: 16 Oct 2007 Location: Gyeonggi do

You included "they discover" in your question making the "who" plural. That requires "study and observe." Drop "they discover" to use the third person singular verb forms.

Who studies and observes celestial bodies in space? An astronomer does.

or

Who studies and observes celestial bodies discovered in space?

or

Who studies and observes celestial bodies he or she discovers in space?
But this is clumsy and irritating and I curse English for not having a decent singular gender non-specific third person pronoun that can be gracefully employed in these cases.

The Cosmic Hum · Joined: 09 May 2003 Location: Sonic Space

ontheway · Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:25 am Post subject: Re: a "who" grammar question

Reise-ohne-Ende · Joined: 07 Sep 2009

That question is just...poorly written. It shouldn't switch from "who" to "they". It should at least be passive -

"Who studies blah blah that has been discovered in space?"

I can at least speak for the southeast US when I say 'who' is always singular. We can even say something like "Who all is going?", which in that case is definitely referring to multiple people but still uses singular verbs. I don't know about other English-speaking places, but The Cosmic Hum is right that UK English often uses plural verbs with collective nouns. I don't know if that would extend to 'collective interrogative pronouns'??

BreakfastInBed · Joined: 16 Oct 2007 Location: Gyeonggi do

My initial certainty has been shaken a little, but I still feel that with a "who" question of this sort we should be able to replace the word "who" with the answer to the question and be left with a grammatically correct sentence. Since the word "they" tells us the answer must be plural, we need the plural verb forms. "Who" is just a place holder for the answer. That's my take.

ontheway · Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:00 am Post subject:

Since "who" is unknown when asked, the answer could be singular or plural.

Teacher: Who hides my pen, every morning, before class?

Tattletale: Mike hides your pen, every morning, before class.

or ........... Mike and Bill hide your pen, every morning, before class.

or ........... They hide your pen, every morning, before class.

A: Who studies and observes celestial bodies they discover in space?

B: Astronomers study and observe celestial bodies they discover in space.

or ... An astronomer studies and observes celestial bodies he or she discovers in space.

However, many style books now allow "they" instead of the more awkward "he or she":

so ... An astronomer studies and observes celestial bodies they discover in space.

However, you can also change the question to:

Who are the people that study and observe celestial bodies they discover in space?

or ... What do we call people who study and observe celestial bodies they discover in space?

Reise-ohne-Ende · Joined: 07 Sep 2009

The last example ontheway provided is I think the best rephrasal of a question that's inherently informal anyway. Smile

ddeubel · Joined: 20 Jul 2005

There is a very clear explanation here - see March 2007. Lots of good grammatical questions/answers and a perfect place for teachers to brush up and/or gain knowledge about grammar.

http://www.tesol.org/s_tesol/seccss.asp?CID=647&DID=2506

DD
http://eflclassroom.com

The Cosmic Hum · Joined: 09 May 2003 Location: Sonic Space

ddeubel · Joined: 20 Jul 2005

The Cosmic Hum · Joined: 09 May 2003 Location: Sonic Space

Lacey Fox · Joined: 03 Aug 2009

Good grief there's a lot of bad grammatical knowledge (and usage, and spelling) on display here.

"Who" is generally treated as singular, with the exception of certain usages as a relative pronoun ("People who go...") or with a specifically plural antecedent ("Who are those people..."). The "they" in the OP sentence is the singular they. A pronoun ("they") cannot be an antecedent, so it is not the antecedent of "who" and thus has no bearing.